Reptile & Amphibian Forums

This is a famous phrase from herpetologist Frank Retes, he actually printed this on T-shirts. Of course this was addressed for monitor keepers and was kind of a joke, but still very true.

I cant say that acanthosaura are what can be called heat loving lizards, they seem to prefer temps in the mid 70s to mid 80s, however they do need heat nevertheless.

Unlike many keepers I have the chance to watch my lizards all day long, ya I know it’s a boring job! Anyway enough complaining.

I see them using basking almost every day, some like this gravid female use it only a few times a week, however she will start using it more as pregnancy advances. Heat is fundamental for these lizards, I really cant imagine keeping them alive without a chance to heat up. Iv already explained why and how heat affects metabolism so I will spare you this time, however let me repeat on this very important point.

Without basking lizards cant regulate there parasites load, they live in symbiosis with parasites, they have so for millions of years, trying to eradicate parasites in lizards is unhealthy, parasite have an essential role on the immune system and hormone production, they are present in all foods regardless of if you breed your own or buy your food at the supermarket.

Vets trying to eradicate parasites are either misinformed or have a hand in your pocket!

Reptiles routinely expulse parasites when defecating, this is how they control population, so expect to see some in faecal once in a while, this doesn’t mean your lizard is sick in anyway.

I leave you with something to ponder about, round worms where eradicated from North American humans in the fifth’s, sins then our immune system is so week that if it wasn’t for dairy products and antibiotics there wouldn’t be any north Americans left except for natives.

Anyway enough rambling for now, but I will post about this again and again as Iv been doing for years. Probably till I see it on the first page of reptiles magazine REPTILE PARASITES A MYTH then we can all focus on important things like husbandry and feeding.

rgds

I have to disagree with you on the parasites being necessary as a whole. Most parasites are exactly that and not so symbiotic other than out competing “bad” parasites if anything. There are “good” bacteria’s that have been proven necessary for many animals and plants for a healthy life. The larger parasites that infect the body could have infected a single species or local of species for millions of years, those species have had that time to adapt through death only, as they gained defenses and the parasite gained offenses. Of course there is more to this depending on the individual. But say you take a parasite from Africa, and drop it into a Malaysian Dragon, there is a good chance they have never adapted to each other…since the parasite is actually adapting to its host as not to kill, but take all nutrition it can at the same time. With this being the goal of the parasite, they are taking much needed nutrition from their host even if they are working things out.
I like to compare our bodies to continents. If you introduce an invasive species into say Australia, it will start to destroy the Country…i.e. an Island will be destroyed much faster. Also the more secluded that Continent has been in the past and smaller it is, the more likely it has no resistance to the attack. I think this goes for parasites to individual animals, plants, reptiles etc.

Jobi, these are strong beliefs but I understand your point as well, so please don’t hate me for my opinion is so different. I would like to hear what you think about this.

Needles to say this subject is one of my all time favourite, however I dough we can take this to a higher level of understanding, first I do not have the competence to do so, and second I dough others will be interested by this subject.

I really appreciate your opinion, as I do when keepers have different views then mine, I believe all of us have something to share, and opposing views allow progress.

To date none of my research have demonstrated a significant difference between African or Asian parasites, I hope you aren’t confusing them with viruses?

Theirs far more to fear with external parasite like ticks and mites then any internal parasites.

I am not saying all parasites live in symbiosis with lizards, but those that do have a much more important role then we think they have, true round worms and tape worms feed on nutrients, however these are mostly fat lipids that are then processed into healthy proteins by the worms, exactly the same way night crawlers fertilise your lawn.

In 99% cases parasites aren’t the problem with captives, parasitism is a disease of husbandry, without proper care no reptile will flourish in captivity.

This is my point, I advocate better husbandry over what in my opinion is total nonsense deworming an already weakened host, the poor lizard is sick and we are trying to help him by poisoning and killing his natural defences.

Sure I understand nobody wants there lizards to have these disgusting worms, but they didn’t evolve to be sterile, they are a complexity of organism in constant mutation, the more you try to alter there system the less they are likely to survive.

Where did this concept of deworming reptiles took birth in herpetoculture? Who started advertising this practise (vets) where did they get this (from medicine) the study of medicine is based on mammalians, species that evolved a metabolism in depended of there environment, our lizards are temperature dependent.

This is not the first time we see an idea (deworming) being passed on from one source to an other until it becomes universally accepted and propagated in most literatures, why?

Because who other then a few, can argue this malpractice? Who amongst herpetoculturist will experiment with parasites and drugs until they reach a better understanding?

Iv spent 15 years with my eye ball stuck on the microscope, trying to understand this complex relation, iv spent the same amount of time trying to eradicate these parasites, those years of failure have tot me a lot more then I can express here, probably much less then any biology student think they know, I say think because there will always be a world of difference between herpetoculture and biology.

The first thing anyone should ask a vet is if he is a keeper, then how did you diagnose and why this treatment. Most are not keepers, do not identify parasites and offer generally used drugs in general dosage, if your animal survive it’s the treatment, if it dies you broth it in to late, don’t you think this is to easy?

Personally I am a friend of lizards, I want them to flourish as captives, I much prefer that keepers save hard earned money for important husbandry and foods.

Tomorrow I am receiving some rare lizards, $2000ea I may refuse them because they transited in Miami, where I am told they where treated with wormers.
This for me is terrible as the affects of wormers are far more dangerous then a few worms, iv seen to many animals fail to acclimate and die from organ failure to accept this risk with such expensive lizards.

Sorry I really tried to keep this short, but I get carried away, the worst is that I am French and often my post are incoherent when I re read them. so dont wory about upseting me in anyway.

Rgds

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The reason she is basking is to get the metabolism going, she will increase this behaviour as she gets more advanced, this allows her to keep the parasite population low witch in turn allows more food for egg production.

Parasites die in only 4-5minuts at 40c, some African parasites from sub Sahara can tolerate 45-50c this is why uromastyx bask at much higher temps.

Theirs really nothing to fear about parasites, bad husbandry is much more dangerous to lizards.

I do respect you and your not only opinion as it sounds like research and much of it. I have no interest in these drug makers or vets interest as well so your point is well taken. I will admit my experiences are with reptile study only and not under the micrascope as you have...but I have really thought of getting one to satisfy my need to learn more. I did a lot of research on parasites, what includes anthing from a virus to a wasp and they all are classified as a parasite based on their actions. I can see the nutritional break down you are refering to, as this happens with even humans and bacteria so this information makes sense.
My biggest complaint to importers was not to give tap water as this destroyed good bacteria. I have never had a problem with panacur, and even seperated groups of imports, no panacur and three weeks of it. My results where in favor of the use, yet with only one species. Also one thing that makes me feel these larger intestinal parasites are not used by at least many of the species is the better quality of specemens captive bred. I do think you are on something though and would love to hear an ear full one day if you have time. Maybe this use is why some species do die and I really am open to new thinking on this subject.

I own a very large reptile collection in an equally large private facility, however until a few years ago my favourite reptile room was my quarantine station, this was not used to quarantine reptiles but for sick and dieing imports that belonged to dealers.

I started doing this when I was 13 old, being from a poor family I could not afford buying reptiles, so I would take donation of dieing animals from the dealer, of course they all died on me back then, my mother must have felt sorry to see how devastated I was every time I lost a reptile. But still I kept trying and with time was les affected by there lost, I improved very slowly, eventually in my mid 20s dealers would let me take more and more of there week animals in hope to salvage some, eventually in my late 20s I was starting to be pretty good at salvaging them, it got to the point that I kept improving and lost very few animals even when dealing large numbers. My best results have been achieved these past 6-7 years, ever sins I stop using drugs to cure PARASITISM a husbandry disease.

I strongly advise you to set up a 20-30gal cage, well hydrated and heated with only a single 25w bulb with reflector, get a dieing crappie parasite infested lizard from any dealer willing to give you the poor thing, simply hydrate him and if he is to week to feed on his own, blend a few bugs and liquefy with water, then tub feed him a few meals, you will be amazed on how reptiles can recover when they have the tools to do so.

Do this over and over again, with all kinds of reptiles, theirs nothing that can bring you more rewording experience in herpetoculture.

Ps. I will be 43 old next week, this post just made me realise that I have been a herper 30 years now, sure hope we can exchange for 30 more.

Hopefully in the near future I will have a forum for this topic. These parasites are very interesting to me too almost as much as the lizards themselves. If you have not already, read the book "Parasite Rex", this is a book that will captivate you for sure.
One part talks about a parasite wasp that actually duplicates its hosts genes essentially making them the same species or at least causing an old rule to be questioned. Then goes on to subjects similar to your reference on protein production in fecal waiste