Reptile & Amphibian Forums

i just bought 2 DHL at the rep. show today
I also just found out that their main diet is harvester ants, which i am highly allergic. Is there a dietary supplement that i can give them or dust on crickets or anything??????????????

No.

Not if you want them to be healthy-
Or you want to avoid killing them by giving them hypervitaminosis from all that excessive un-natural store shelf crap and the wrong diet. Rumors abound, however there exists no supplement that will substitute for formic acid derived from harvester ants.

This is the type of research one should do before coming home with 2 Horned Lizards...or any pet for that matter.

"Allergic" is a relative term. I am allergic to them too. They hurt like a [bleep]. To what degree you are allergic is the question. I am also "allergic" to venomous snakes...however I have learned how to handle them safely and have avoided any serious injury in the years that I have messed with them. One can learn how to handle harvester ants safely too. I can pick them up between my fingers in such a manner that they cannot sting me. And then there are gloves, and all sorts of alternatives. If you cannot do any of those, then the Horned Lizards really need to go to a home where they can get the diet they need to be healthy. Don't put them through a half-a$$ diet where they may suffer simply for your pleasure as a pet. Not saying you're that type, I'm just getting it out there.

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"A man that should call everything by it's right name, would hardly pass the streets without being knocked down as a common enemy." The Complete Works of George Savile, First Marquess of Halifax 1912,246

This is what I sometimes get upset with, that a vendor who knows better sells an animal to a novice that should be informed well before they take on such an animal. It seeems clear to me that you didn't know the committment involved here to raise one of these healthy. These lizards are in need of an ant diet in order to maintain good health. They need a UVB bulb and I would recommend a 40 gal. cage for two but people keep them in smaller caging. Temps need to be proper for digestion, you can buy ants which run around 10-15 dollars for 500 at a time. These lizards can eat 100 at a sitting, you will need to occassionally suplement these with small crickets 1/4" or so and perhaps mini mealworms or wax worms to vary the diet - but these are primarily ant eaters. IF you were to go to the HL sites on the internet yo would get a lot of info and understand the need for a commitment and expense to raise these. While it is not an easy animal to take care of long term it can be done, but you need to decide to committ financially to these animals or as Fireside above recomended that maybe giving them to a good home or someone who knows these would be a good idea. We are now approaching the winter months when these animals go down for the winter and hibernate, my concern is that if they are not healthy they may not do well hibernating this winter, so there are many factors. I am not writing this to scare you off, nor to criticize because its clear too me that the vendor should not be selling these lizards in that way first of all. They at the very least should have a care sheet out front that covers some or all of the specifics of husbandry for these animals so newbies can indeed determine if this is a good choice or not. If you could post a picture on the web-site here then we might be able to look at the body and see what kind of fat reserves the animals are carrying and maybe also determine just how healthy of an animal you have purchased. Let us know what you think and whats going on. Certianly I am not being critical of you personally, but there are many of these lizards year after year being sold by what I consider to be unscrupulous sellers of reptiles that know better and for greed sell these lizards to anyone with little information and the results often end in distaster. So I hope you understand the vain in which this advice is being given and I am sure the same is true of the gentlemen above, please read some of the horned lizard sites on the internet and get yourself familiarised with the committment you need to have in caging, lighting, and food in order to maintain a healthy phrynosoma (horned lizard). Cheers!
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Phrynosoma.org

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signature file edited. [phw 11/14/04]

Very well said Lou. You always strike a nice medium between the positions I and others may take...or at least how it is said.

I also agree that there are many unscrupulous sellers out there, and many will lie to a potential buyer...but here's my stance on this: individual responsibility.

The seller, though maybe unscrupulous and maybe dishonest, is just a seller. If I let somebody take a Horned Lizard, you know I will ensure whomever I give it to is up to speed. But that's my choice. I don't like unscrupulous sellers. But, it is not the "duty" of the seller to give you the third degree and ensure you know what the heck you are doing. I don't need anyone in a place of business asking me if I know how to operate a lawn mower or pump gas before they sell it to me.

In the end, it's the person buying who should bear the criticism for knowing better and doing homework. We all know better, whether it's a car or an animal-thus the reason I most often come off with what sounds like a harder line with people. Though this is not an excuse for dishonest behavior, "sellers" of everything imaginable have been unscrupulous and dishonest for thousands of years. Thus, Caveat Emptor: "Let the buyer beware" should be the watch word.
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"A man that should call everything by it's right name, would hardly pass the streets without being knocked down as a common enemy." The Complete Works of George Savile, First Marquess of Halifax 1912,246

Fireside, I would say that when I was a novice the first animal I got was an iguana, I was told a whole bunch of stuff by the seller, just so he could get the sale. I had no idea that I shold have a 40 gallon cage to start with, not one thing was said about lighting, They were feeding it crickets so I got the impression they might be a good feed as well even though I knew they also eat plants, I had no idea about water requirements etc. So while it is true anyone who buys any animal anywhere anytime, should certianly research the animals to see if it is a good choice I must put it back on the seller of the reptiles.

Heres what I know.

Good people with good reputations fully inform their clients and children of what they are getting into, usually provide a care sheet and give mom and pop some idea about the expense involved and commitment. Thats what I know about reputable people I have delt with all my life. I know many reptile dealers that would never sell a horned lizard period to a novice as well as other lizards that are likely to be more for an expeirienced hand. Lets face it we all start somewhere........

Since horned lizards are so cute and look like little dinosaurs their appeal can be overwhelming, but there are other choices which we all know about for a reptile pet. I don't want to let one reptile dealer selling to a novice off the hook -- because he knows better! If he doesn't he shouldn't be selling them. That's why I personally am against the indiscriminant sale of horned lizards in the herpticulture, while I am not against them being legally captured I believe that selling of this particluar animal should be regulated or stopped all together. Captive born and bred animals are much more likely to sustain in captivity..... I can applaud Lester Milroy and many other of our friends on this forum and while he and I have not always seen eye to eye, having observed over the years and read some of the information about Hl's on the market I have come to value the animal over the herpticulture, and put conservation in the forefront. I hope we always have the ability to legally capture by license or buy captive born under a proper "breeders program" with an adoption review as part of the purchase and the monies going back into conservation and land management for Hls.... I have written a paper on this some time ago, and even now I would have to update it as my views have changed, but the program outlined in the paper is an excellent idea and still maintains a minimum gene pool for captive breeding and stronger restrictions on selling indiscrimenantly. Cheers All!
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Phrynosoma.org

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Lou, I agree 100% with 80% of what you say.
Especially with your more conservation minded stance. I too do not let sellers "off the hook". In fact I think that you may be aware that I have blasted a few for under-representing or omitting certain material facts, and not even knowing themselves what they are selling. I just don't let buyers off either.

I don't often get the opportunity to talk to sellers, it's the buyers or potential buyers that we see on these forums, and my hope is that others who may come along later having designs on owning one of these, read this and take note.

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"A man that should call everything by it's right name, would hardly pass the streets without being knocked down as a common enemy." The Complete Works of George Savile, First Marquess of Halifax 1912,246

At the risk of being bashed by the Horned Lizards Forum Gods...here's my two cents.

Let’s assume your DHL’s are wild caught. If so, then clearly an ant diet is best. Ants will be what they are used to, ants will be less stressful for them to have in the cage, and ants will be the best prey for their already established digestive systems.

If you must go with another insect, then crickets are what I recommend. For this protocol, you’ll need a large bucket, or better yet, a 10-20 gallon plastic tote when considering the high ventilation that’s needed here. Make sure you thoroughly clean & dry the container before you do anything else. Any contaminants in the container will eventually get into your lizards. Cover the bottom of the container with ~ ½” of medium grain Calci-Sand. This should take care of the lizards calcium/mineral needs. Find a place to buy pin-head crickets in bulk (beware; you’ll be buying at least 1000 at a time!). Put the crickets in the container along with the cardboard egg-crate material they typically come with, and put nothing else in there. Feed them thoroughly cleaned pieces of carrots, romaine lettuce, apple, peaches and plums. Orange, yellow and red rose petals are good too, as are dandelions, as long as no pesticides or fertilizers are involved. For water, you only need to use a lemon, lime, orange or grapefruit wedge. This doubles as a water source and a vitamin/natural acids source. Make sure to only put in the container what the crickets can consume within a day or two. Make sure that any food items with mold or spoilage on it gets tossed immediately. Make sure the container stays dry and between 70-90F for most of the day. Under this cricket diet regiment, dusting should not be necessary.

Feed the DHL’s as many crickets as they will eat in a 15 minute period, about 2 to 3 times a day. Do this by adding a few crickets (10-20) at a time until they stop eating them. They sometimes gorge themselves on the crickets, which is usually followed by regurgitation. If they tend to regurgitate the crickets, reduce the amount of crickets per feeding time and increase their hydration cycle (more to follow). It’s OK to leave a few extra crickets in their cage, but be very careful not to leave too many as they will overstress the lizard and possibly attack too. If for some reason too many crickets are left in the cage, don’t panic, just throw in a fresh apple slice and they’ll go after that and leave your lizards alone. Eventually the lizard will hunt them down and eat them all. You can expect a full grown DHL to consume up to 100 pin heads a day, so be prepared! You can try to go up to 2wk old crickets, but if there’s any sign of weight loss or disinterest in the larger crickets, then go back to the pin heads as quick as possible.

As for hydration, even though they are desert animals, I’ve found hydration to be very important to their well being. For hydration I use a plastic Glad Lunch Box Container, with holes punched in the top. I put just enough warm water in the container to just barely cover the bottom. Next in go the animals, after which I gently mist them with a warm spray of water. I get them just wet enough to enable the wick effect. I then put the lid on and set aside for 10-15 minutes. You can tell if they’re drinking if they start licking the water that has wicked up to the corners of their mouth. I typically remove them when they stop licking and go back to scratching to get out. I do this 1-3 times a week depending on how hot they have been during the week. Sometimes they won’t drink, but that’s OK, it’s better to have a little too much water then to not get enough. If you go this route, make sure they have enough time in a heat zone to completely dry out before they go to bed. Don’t want them wet when they go down for the night.

One last suggestion, make sure they get real sunlight if you can. I have found no substitute for real sunlight when wanting to maintain healthy animals in captivity. There may be some artificial sources out there that work just as well, but I haven’t found them. Only sunlight seems to make my little guys really grow.

Roger

I appreciate your information, on hydration, also I am not agaisnt feeding a horned lizard mixed insects, as they are opportunistic in the wild do eat other insects, but scat analysis does show that ants as you said are the main diet. I assume your jesting about the "horned lizard gods", because any information I give out is done humbly and with the intent that someone might night have to spend the next 5 years coming up with some of the observations and experiences that others have come to......Also everyones opinion is relevant to the conversation which I highly prize as we all learn together about the natural history and husbandry of these great animals.

Another little trick for the sake of conversation with respect to water, is to get some 1/4" mesh screen and cut a piece out the same configuration as your shallow water bowl just alittle larger than the inside dcemonsion of the bowl or container, and then push it in the bowl then pull it out and turn it upside down and gently push it into the bowl so it locks down in the bowl solidly, then fill with water to the mesh screen. As the hl's cross the screen they smell and often see the water and lap the water through the screen with no sense of fear of getting wet or drowning. This has worked for me for years and I put a water bowl in every week or week in and half depending on the weather and if they have taken in any greens, depending on the specie. Cheers!
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Phrynosoma.org

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signature file edited. [phw 11/14/04]

You've got some good husbandry tips Reptoman.

But the piquant point that comes to my mind just now is:

what the heck induces you dispatch, without delay, a message defending yourself as one of the "Gods"? How presumptive and arrogant!

We all know he was talking about me

ROMFF like that new tickle me Elmo hehehehe-haw-haw!
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"A man that should call everything by it's right name, would hardly pass the streets without being knocked down as a common enemy." The Complete Works of George Savile, First Marquess of Halifax 1912,246

Brother Fireside,

We are all learners together-wisdom comes from everywhere, and mans opinions are cheap, certianly observation and study are the point of us all on the forum..... RKhome has given some of us food for thought....Cheers!

...The clear motivation for ones intentions can never be mistaken for anything other than what is is.......

Col 4:6 Let your speech [be] alway with grace, seasoned with salt, that ye may know how ye ought to answer every man.
Jam 5:12 .....let your yea be yea; and [your] nay, nay;......
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Phrynosoma.org

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signature file edited. [phw 11/14/04]

Aw, don't go gettin' all biblically serious on me. I was making a funny. Must everything I say be taken so personally by people, that they can't even recognize the humor in something? That's food for thought.I really figured you people would enjoy my ironic poke...especially since it included myself as a subject?

Yes, observation and study. Two things that I don't see enough of with many. That should be food for thought too.

"The clear motivation for ones intentions can never be mistaken for anything other than what is is."

Seemingly very insightful, prima facia. But relies upon a false premise, as I can illustrate by your own actions. The statement relies upon the premise that motivations will always be clear. Certainly anything that is "clear" should not be mistaken. As Ayn Rand said; "Only the primitive minded can fail to realize that clarity is oversimplification." But whether the motivation of another is "clear" is a matter of extreme subjectiveness.
There are people that get paid large sums of money to figure things like that out, and have similarly "significant" educations, whom disagree all the time as to such conclusions. It is not only beauty that is in the eye of the beholder.

So, I dispute your apparent assertion that motivations are always "clear". Did you not come to your own defense about your own motivations? Obviuosly you felt misunderstood and felt the need to clarify to RK. Why is that? Could it be that "clear motivation" is not always revealed, and you should also refrain from jumping to conclusions about me and my motivations, brother? I question not yours when it comes to your intentions about the welfare of Horned Lizards. If mine is in question to you, then could you elaborate?

My yea is always yea, and my nay, nay. I find myslef to be quite consistent and one need not be confused about where I stand. I make a point of saying exactly what I mean. Though it may not be what someone wants to hear, nor seasoned for their individual palate, I harbor no guilt.

Galatians 4:
"16Have I now become your enemy by telling you the truth?"

"18It is fine to be zealous, provided the purpose is good..."

I can also take from a book to support my position. Remember that before you direct religious text at someone. And that's big food for thought.

No harm intended, and nothing harmful taken. Cheers!

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"A man that should call everything by it's right name, would hardly pass the streets without being knocked down as a common enemy." The Complete Works of George Savile, First Marquess of Halifax 1912,246

I think this is moving off the subject and at this point in time I am not trying to convince you of anything, what I said was clear, your entitled to your opinion as everyone here on the forum is......Cheers!
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Phrynosoma.org

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signature file edited. [phw 11/14/04]

I agree. But if you would like to debate philosophy or religion, you can send me an email. I enjoy a lively debate, and enjoy anyone else who is capable of the same. It doesn't mean I'm at war with you. It just means that your mind is made up, and you won't let yourself be confused with facts .

I have little quarrel with you when it comes to the best for Horned Lizards, and I hope you have not taken this personally.
All the best.
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"A man that should call everything by it's right name, would hardly pass the streets without being knocked down as a common enemy." The Complete Works of George Savile, First Marquess of Halifax 1912,246

I will endeavor to keep the lightning bolts to a minimum.

Just two points:
1. Obviously I know you weren't implying to do so, but feeding them so many crickets that gorging and regurgitation might even be a likely occurrence sounds like a recipe for an impaction and poor general health due to excessive fat and heavy work load on their liver, heart, etc.
Those who have known me on this forum for the last couple of years, will recall that I previously kept a cornutum on a high cricket diet for an extended period of time. After that experiment, and after consulting by telephone with Lester Milroy III, conservation biologist, I no longer recommend it. If I agree with nothing else, I know Letser knows biology.

2. On Calci-Sand, I think it's a waste of money. Horned Lizards don't ingest enough of it to justify the cost. They do take in some, and it won't hurt to use it. But it's a far cry to say that it will meet all their "calcium/mineral needs". I don't like the way supplements are overused/prescribed in the herp field, but if you are going to use a high cricket diet you should know that they have a bad calcium/phosphorus ratio to begin with and high fat. Most of the food items you suggested to feed the crickets don't have an appreciable calcium content or good Ca ratio. A snickers candy bar has more calcium than carrots, and romaine lettuce isn't much better. Their Ca ratio is on the negative side; less that 1:1. Greens such as Collard, Turnip or Mustards are far superior. And fruits are generally bad too, though crickets will enjoy them. If such a diet is used at all, it should include items which will tend to raise the Ca ratio of the crickets as feeders.

These are reasons I tend to steer new people away from the temptation to just feed these lizards another insect as a staple besides what they were designed to eat as a staple. There is much more to know than just throwing the lizard something it will eat in captivity.
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"A man that should call everything by it's right name, would hardly pass the streets without being knocked down as a common enemy." The Complete Works of George Savile, First Marquess of Halifax 1912,246

I'm curious, I've read a couple of your posts referring to this experiment, so now I'll bite. What were the control parameters of your cornutum experiment? E.G.: What was your sample size, just one? Was the animal W/C or CB? How old was it when you started the experiment? What was the environmental setup, the feeding regiment, the feeding regiment of the crickets, the annual light, temp, hibernation cycles, etc. There are so many parameters involved with conducting an experiment like that, and any one parameter incorrectly controlled could lead to a false conclusion. To do such an experiment scientifically, you will need to start with CB HL's, that have never seen ants, or been exposed to the parasitic issues associated with ants. You would have to control all aspects mentioned above. You would need to devise some method to determine whether or not the experiment is a success. In short, if you are basing your cricket diet conclusion on a sample of only one, WC animal, raised in a relatively uncontrolled setup, then I'm sorry, but any results from such an experiment can't be considered conclusive in any way.

Also, where are you getting your Ca data from, and what specifically are the numbers you are referring to? I've done limited research on the web in this area, and the short time that I have spent looking into the chemical makeup on Ants, Crickets, and other potential prey items indicate pretty much the opposite of what your stating in your post. Generally speaking, from the data I've seen, Crickets appear to be a far better food source then ants, chemically speaking that is.

Yeah, I know, now I have to go get this data....will do so and post later.

Thanks,
Roger

RK-I don't if you talking to me or to someone else, I am not sure about the "experiment part" you refer too--but ants have been well documented to be the main food sourve for most horned lizards. If you have been to the Phrynosoma site there is quite a bit of information on ants and which species are larger ant eaters than opthers and these results did come from scientific study. Also if you have keept horned lizards for 20 to 30 years and captured them in the wild one only needs to look at the scat and determine that ants are primarily the insect of choice for most species. I feed mine small crickets every once in awhile but prefer mini-mealworms or a wax worm to crickets as I believe there are some that are sold on the market that are not healthy. It is true that Hl's, ants and nematodes seem to go together.... I'm not doubting your analysis of crickets one bit, but if ants are the prime insect of choice and I can provide ants, then I do. I don't know how many species of Hl's you have successfully kept for more than three or four years or if you have had the pleasure of breeding them, and there are some people that are pretty died in the dirt about not feeding their horned lizards ants and trying to find an alternative. IF they are successful, then great, but many of the people on the forum have also come to the conclusion by observation and exchange of information that life cycles and breeding of these animals do seem to be better in the long run with ants. While I am not sure you were addressing me, I think you can find enough scientific and personal experience over years to support ants. Certianly your at your discreation to do as you choose, but when I am dealing with someone that hasn't been involved with Hl's I am recommending ants always and the committment to long time care. Best to you.......
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signature file edited. [phw 11/14/04]

100% second.
He was talking to me Repto.
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"A man that should call everything by it's right name, would hardly pass the streets without being knocked down as a common enemy." The Complete Works of George Savile, First Marquess of Halifax 1912,246

I will clarify my vocabulary by stating that when I said "experiment", I did not mean it in the sense of a strictly controlled observation to verify a thesis. It was meant in jest. That is my fault for using specific vocabulary without adding a caveat.
However, that "experience" alone was not the sole, nor most pivotal reason for the conclusions I have since come to with regards to the subject. You are going along on a premise that there will be a marked difference in the efficiency of this diet, based upon whether the animals are captive bred or wild. I think that is a flawed assumption. At this point it would be a theory at best...therefore, making it something you should not responsibly advocate without your own scientific data.
As for me: My position stands most firmly on the information gleaned from talking to Lester, and which was confirmed by my own husbandry knowledge in line with that, which also applied to other herps that I have experience with. I.e., improper captive diets too high in protein and fat, which leads to health and growth problems. There was also a bit if common sense in my conclusions; because it doesn't matter whether you buy into creationism or Dawinism and natural selection. The result is the same: which is that the majority of the species within this genus are DESIGNED by God, nature, planetary alignment, or cosmic ether...to eat Harvester ants as a staple diet. And I find it curious that Havester ants can be found aboundant in almost every area where these lizards are native. I think there is something to that. Disagree at your lizards peril.
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"A man that should call everything by it's right name, would hardly pass the streets without being knocked down as a common enemy." The Complete Works of George Savile, First Marquess of Halifax 1912,246

here's references on Ca data for foods which would be more suitable as cricket food to raise Ca.

http://boxturtlesite.org/min.html
http://www.nal.usda.gov/fnic/foodcomp/search/

In my opinion, crickets can be used, but should be used only as occasional food, and should be supplemented or feed a better diet than suggested, to raise Ca value. Those were my primary differences with your message.

Here are references for Ca data for the various insects themselves. The are insects with better Ca ratios, though fat content may be higher. I confess I do not know what the Ca of a Pogonomyrmex is...do you? But I would speculate that given it's exoskeleton, it is probably higher than a cricket and the fat content would be nil. Regardless, we already know from extensive prior research that these ants are the staple diet of the horned lizard, and common sense observations in nature would dictate that the natural diet already taken by the animal must be the best. I fail to see the logic as to why it would be any different in a CB example. The most prevalent reason I see for people advocating alternate staple diets, is not for scientific purposes...it is because they usually have a commercial interest in selling the lizards, or because they don't live in horned lizard/harvester ant native territory, and they don't want to shell out for ants.

http://72.14.253.104/search?q=cache:FdMGaAFKCbAJ:www.nagonline.net/Technical%2520Papers/NAGFS00397Insects-JONIFEB24,2002MODIFIED.pdf+Feeding+Captive+Insectivorous+Animals:+Nutritional+Aspects+of+Insects+as+Food&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=1
http://nagonline.net/technical_papers.htm
http://www.jurassipet.com/Support/ca_p_ratios.html
http://www.grubco.com/Nutritional_Information.cfm

For some time I have known that earthworms were very nutritional for my box turtles. And I have tried before to offer them to a HL. But the one's I use for the turtles are large. I see that Petco is now selling very small ones, and I will probably try some out to see if my HL's are in interested.

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"A man that should call everything by it's right name, would hardly pass the streets without being knocked down as a common enemy." The Complete Works of George Savile, First Marquess of Halifax 1912,246

Now is see why we disagree, you like "SNIKERS". OK milky ways, i can go with.Also, higher calcium than good greens?I wonder if we can contact whoever, and see if snikers can be made into the shape of small ants(better put them in the cool end of the enclosure).Peanuts might be a problem,maybe milky ways would be better, I have to admit,I DO NOT know the calcium content of a milky way bar.

OH yea, notice how the original poster is POOF, gone.

Just another of MY observations.scott.

Scott-if you think the posters are being treated with impunity, then why don't you give a stab at answering someones questions.......this is the nature of forums and while we have some divergent ideas yours is just as well recieved as the next are they not? None of us own the forum, and some of us show our passion for our ideas more than others.....Cheers!

Thats as far as I'm biting on your observations.....
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Well, this is my last post, I actually did want to post some more questions, as i have a few, but I can just "wing it".Not a big deal.I did email the original poster, gave them as much info as I knew.Just normal stuff, temps,etc.Its funny, I was thinking that if we had a "get together" of the forum here, we would only need one picnic table.Ok maybe two.I do appreciate the info here.You guys are not a bad bunch of guys, its just like the world in general, everyones sorta weird in their own ways.Like fireside, i can understand, you see I am like you in a way, seems like most here are, I tell it like I see it,and I do not care what anyone thinks, as long as I feel it inside.sorta like when someones talking on their cell, and driving on my side of the road, and I am on the shoulder , yelling get off your #@#$ phone, idiot!!!!!that's an example.:

What are you cooking for the get together?
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Phrynosoma.Com

Perhaps the original poster had already been given the proper information about the right thing to do, and required nothing else as to that question. Has that occured to you?
I'm sorry for you and your animals if you decide to make it your last post and "wing it". That's simply a rediculous impulsive decision. Not the type of keeper I figured you would turn out to be when I first began talking to you.
It's ok to disagree, but I must tell you honestly, that you have come across like a "Mister I've been doing this a few months and I think I can give advice to newcomers and discount the opinions of the more experienced."
I was keeping Horned Lizards for a good 2-3 years before I presumed to know enough to tell people what to do with them. You really shouldn't be telling anyone anything at this point in contradiction to the balance of the informed opinions here. That's just the truth. When was it that you started keeping these animals? mid-summer? People don't care much for the way I come across sometimes. I know that. But the perceived emotive force behind my messages is not the issue here. You need only concern yourself with whether the "information" in my argument is valid. I can go back and forth with Cable, Repto, and Lester on many things...but in the end our opinions on care and husbandry are much closer than they are apart. We just appear diametrically oppossed because when we dicide to disagree, we can really disagree. I don't think that keeps us from getting together at the "picnic table". You are welcome too, but lets keep a prespective here on just what kind of information you can ligitimately offer at this point in your experience. I understand what you mean with different personalities. I can be "passionate" as some would say, or as I would say "just direct or a straight talker." But I strive to be objective in those things. I get excited when someone challenges me and I have to back things up. It causes me to learn and stay sharp. I don't get bent by it. Nobody else should either, cause let's face it, what people say on this forum ain't the most pressing thing going on in my life, you know?
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"A man that should call everything by it's right name, would hardly pass the streets without being knocked down as a common enemy." The Complete Works of George Savile, First Marquess of Halifax 1912,246