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I was at the Daytona Reptile show and my daughter wanted a horned lizard baby. I said no as their main diet is harvester ants and they need the formic acid from them to flourish. The dealer said that they didn't need the ants, that there was a formic acid powder that could be sprinkled on other insects so you didn't have to use ants. I have never heard of such a thing, and think it was just a sales ploy. Anyone heard of this? Thanks.
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I can not talk down the product because I know nothing about it, but if you would consider this maybe this may have some bearing as well. While I am sure the contents of many ant species is known to have formic acid, its a big jump from a wild ant population as a food source to a powder containing formic acid. I would be intersted in the vendor and the product. But listen the studies I have read clearly deliniate that ants contain amino acids and other building blocks needed by horned lizards, while I can't say that someone will not come up with some magic formula, I would have to read the research and how they came to the conclusion that thats all they need? I think a 70 percent or more diet of ants with a mixture of wax worms, mini-mealworms, small king mealworms, 1/4inch crickets has proven over and over again to be a reliable food protocol for horned lizards. They are opportunistic and certian times of the year will eat other insects, thats a known fact, however again one only needs to spend some time in the field and check the horned lizard scat and you'll find the highest percentage of the scats I have found are always ants. So I am not going to automatically condem anybodys attempt to produce such a product but I am not in the slightest convinced that the product over long term would be acceptable. I would like to see several years of captive breeding behind this, as well as care and husbandry protocol over several years. If this product is an acceptable protocol is this his opinion based on what? We have had this discussion many times on this forum, you can check back, but the experts that I am aware of are not convinced by this as far as I know.....Again the amino acids and other building blocks that keepo a horned lizard healthy cannot just be one ingrediant in my opinion... So I am assuming your supposed to sprinle this in crickets and other insects? HMMMM? Last of all why not feed them their known food source instead of using a rich diet of other insects which is unatural over a long period of time? Cheers!!!
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Phrynosoma.org

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signature file edited. [phw 11/14/04]

This ia dictionary definition of formic acid:

Formic Acid
Simplest carboxylic acid, chemical formula HCOOH. It is secreted by some insects, especially red ants (its name comes from the Latin word for ant), in their bite or sting. It has many industrial uses, in textile and leather manufacture, as an industrial solvent, and as an intermediate.

It seems it is used in defense by insects and is found in the bodies of ants, lets remember an ants isn't very big, but the fact they manufacture this for defense purposes in bees, and ant bites, is not in anway convincing to me that formic acid alone is the only ingredient that will magically make a horned lizard a healthy aninmal over and given length of time....and therefore unecessary to feed ants and amy insect with this powder will do. Ants have a mou th system that allows them to overcome the ants defense mechanism, now since this is true, it is interesting that people spend far too much time finding an "alternative" to thier naturally created abilities.

Its a known fact that too much of a good thing can kill certian reptiles.......i.e. too much potien or rich insect diet in certian lizards will burn out their kidneys and bring them down.........I hope Lester or one of our other people will give reasons why this may not be a good product. Certianly I apprechiate you bringing the discussion for comments.....Cheers!!!
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Phrynosoma.org

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signature file edited. [phw 11/14/04]

This mythic powder seems to surface on the forum every year. Nobody has yet produced a source for it. Sounds cool though.
There are other proteins in ants that are probably more important than the acid.
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Phrynosoma.Org
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If it's the same stuff I'm thinking of, it's sold in liquid form at some farm/ranch supply and feed stores... but I've never seen nor heard of it as a powder supplement for herps.

-Celena-

Celena--do you know what the liquid form is used for with rtespect to farm supply? I live in Texas In the rural country, just curious..........Thanks for your input.
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Phrynosoma.org

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signature file edited. [phw 11/14/04]

Formic acid is very close in composition to acetic acid, and this is what I used when making "acidified water" per Montanucci's information on the subject of gastrointeritis.

Being originally from Texas and working around livestock before I know the agricultural product is used by ranchers to treat feed and hay against mold, bacteria etc. and has the same beneficial effects in the GI tract of livestock as in Horned Lizards. It is usually diluted and sprayed onto hay, or as a grain additive to feed. There are other ingredients as well.
But as formic acid is also used in metal etching and the concentration of such products, not originally intended as direct supplements for reptiles, may be unknown or extremely high, I think anyone would be crazy to use it on insect feeders. I'm sure there are other constituients in the spray mix that may be safe on hay for cattle, etc. but not so for reptiles. I've never considered whether crickets could be feed a mix containing the dry feed additive...but how much of that would be passed on to the lizard? Sounds like an experiment.
Ranchers use Ivermec all the time too, but we know it is deadly to many herps.

I tend against "supplements" that by-pass the natural process for either producing or metabolizing something, if there is a more natural way. Anytime you "by-pass" something, it is usually in response to an immediate problem as a temporary fix, and often times causes new problems anyway.

Yup, same question at least once per year on every HL forum.
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