Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Do your dragons love roaches more then crickets?

Are they eating only small roaches?

Apparently there are some breeders in my area, think I will try them.

np

This is one of the species I have but the colony is too small to feed off yet. These are the right size to feed to the larger species like armata and capra. What I am currently feeding are larger species but I feed the smaller, half grown nymphs. I am feeding off Blaptica Dubia with the best results and find they are producing really well too. These are broad little tanks and are soft bodied. They reproduce quickly while the lateralis are more shy and don't produce well unless kept in dark, covered containers. The Lateralis are very fast, much like crickets, and should be well accepted once the colony is established.

I have found that all of my animals have accepted the roaches very well and they hold the mineral powder very well!
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Marcia - FroggieB Dragons
www.froggieb.com/MHDHome.html

To add another species: IMHO Rhyparobia maderae are a very recommendable feeder species. They are much softer than Blaptica or Blaberus, the nymphs are quite voluminous and more elongated and thus easier to swallow than many other roaches.
Moreover this species does not hide as quickly as other roaches but runs around in upper aereas of the herp tank quite often.
Last not least they are prolific seem to taste very well. Many of my herps do prefer them over many other roach species.
One drawback: They are quick glassclimbers and if kept too moist, the colony smells (but if kept dry enough, its completely odourless).
Nauphoeta cinerea have similar properties but is smaller and has a higher pest potential.
Unexpectedly to me, also nymphs of Princisia vanwaerebecki display very similar attributes and since Princisia is almost as prolific as Blaptica, I also established a colony of these for feeder purposes. The giant adults are a nice snack for my jewelled lizards, tokays, oustalets and the like and the nymphs are a soft and readily accepted food for all smaller lizards.
Again, these are preferred over Blaptica nd Blaberus by most of my lizards (just the oustalets do love big winged Blaberus more)

Best regards

Ingo

I will have to look into these. I just am very leary of any glass climbers. I had great luck feeding lobsters but had a horrible time with escapees! My husband wasn't at all understanding of that! I almost ended up with no roaches at all! : )
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Marcia - FroggieB Dragons
www.froggieb.com/MHDHome.html

Rhyparobia maderae are double the size of Nauphoeta cinerea and according to my book they have one of the most disgusting defensive odors. I guess they are less likely to become a pest though and that would be a plus.

So, the odor, is it defensive or is it completely dependant on humidity of the housing in your opinion? I know that the orange heads give off a pretty bad odor when I am picking out the nymphs. Anything much more than them would be pretty bad!

I can't even find anything on Princisia vanwaerebecki. Can you tell me any more about them?
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Marcia - FroggieB Dragons
www.froggieb.com/MHDHome.html

Yes, Rhyparobia are bigger than Nauphoeta, but an adult Acanthosaura can manage at least the male imagines. A big capra or a G. chamaeleontinus has no problems with winged females either. Also I do use preferably nymphs as feeders, because these are more voluminous in relation to their size and more elongated and easy to swallow. These of course come in any size you want.
The stench in Rhyparobia is emitted only in defense and under severe stress. Also a colony starts to stink if kept too moist. A normal colony is absolutely odorless (otherwise, my family would not allow me to produce them). Also the herps do not care about the intense hissing -better: fiddleing- of the imagines and the stench. Wether you think, the defense odor is stronger than those of the orange heads or not depends on your personal impression.
I do normally collect them by shaking an card board egg box taken from the colony within a larger container to collect the roaches from the box. So I do not touch them and normally they do not emit stench during this procedure. Also least Rhyparobia are much less allergenic than Blaptica (I do have problems with feeder insect allergies).
To my expereince the pest potential (thinking of german households, may be different in warmer climates)of R. maderae is in almost the same range as for N. cinerea but much lower than for Blatta lateralis (aka Shelfordella tartara). Nevertheless, they are quick and hence, from time to time I do find some running free in my house. Normally they do not multiply there (otherwise, my family would....). But I have a suspicion that they do multiplicate is my herp room. Anyhow, its tropical climate there and the free roaming geckos keep the crickets and roaches short.

Princisia vanwaerebecki is one of the largest wingless hissing roaches and comes in at least three variants: A blackish one, a striped one and an extraordinarly large one. Sexing is easy: Males have small horns as for many hissers.
They are about as prolific as Blaptica and at least smaller nymphs are about as soft and agile as Rhyparobia Nymphs.
Pest potential is very low (but they are glass climbers and the nymphs are much quicker than the adults) and the big adults are a nice pet for children or fascinatng display animals. Moreover, larger lizards also love full grown imagines.
In defense, they do not stink, just hiss. No lizard seems to care about that...they love them.
The only drawback I experienced so far was that the strong adults are capable of lifting lightweight lids. I had to learned that the hard way, having a few hundred free running Princisia for a while. But these are relatively easy to catch: using a moist towel and some dandelion for bait collected most escapees in a single night. To catch the last 10% lasted much longer and some died from exsiccation.
Now I am using a heavy lid on the colony.....

Best regards

Ingo

>>Yes, Rhyparobia are bigger than Nauphoeta, but an adult Acanthosaura can manage at least the male imagines. A big capra or a G. chamaeleontinus has no problems with winged females either. Also I do use preferably nymphs as feeders, because these are more voluminous in relation to their size and more elongated and easy to swallow. These of course come in any size you want.
>>The stench in Rhyparobia is emitted only in defense and under severe stress. Also a colony starts to stink if kept too moist. A normal colony is absolutely odorless (otherwise, my family would not allow me to produce them). Also the herps do not care about the intense hissing -better: fiddleing- of the imagines and the stench. Wether you think, the defense odor is stronger than those of the orange heads or not depends on your personal impression.
>>I do normally collect them by shaking an card board egg box taken from the colony within a larger container to collect the roaches from the box. So I do not touch them and normally they do not emit stench during this procedure. Also least Rhyparobia are much less allergenic than Blaptica (I do have problems with feeder insect allergies).
>>To my expereince the pest potential (thinking of german households, may be different in warmer climates)of R. maderae is in almost the same range as for N. cinerea but much lower than for Blatta lateralis (aka Shelfordella tartara). Nevertheless, they are quick and hence, from time to time I do find some running free in my house. Normally they do not multiply there (otherwise, my family would....). But I have a suspicion that they do multiplicate is my herp room. Anyhow, its tropical climate there and the free roaming geckos keep the crickets and roaches short.
>>
>>Princisia vanwaerebecki is one of the largest wingless hissing roaches and comes in at least three variants: A blackish one, a striped one and an extraordinarly large one. Sexing is easy: Males have small horns as for many hissers.
>>They are about as prolific as Blaptica and at least smaller nymphs are about as soft and agile as Rhyparobia Nymphs.
>>Pest potential is very low (but they are glass climbers and the nymphs are much quicker than the adults) and the big adults are a nice pet for children or fascinatng display animals. Moreover, larger lizards also love full grown imagines.
>>In defense, they do not stink, just hiss. No lizard seems to care about that...they love them.
>>The only drawback I experienced so far was that the strong adults are capable of lifting lightweight lids. I had to learned that the hard way, having a few hundred free running Princisia for a while. But these are relatively easy to catch: using a moist towel and some dandelion for bait collected most escapees in a single night. To catch the last 10% lasted much longer and some died from exsiccation.
>>Now I am using a heavy lid on the colony.....
>>
>>
>>Best regards
>>
>>Ingo
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Marcia - FroggieB Dragons
www.froggieb.com/MHDHome.html

I really think lateralis and orange spot will be an excellent food source for the dragons.

European worms, tree frogs and capucine flowers all seem like valuable foods.

the catids are a pain to keep, so I am stirring away from all cricket related foods and beetle larva’s, not the best foods in my opinion.

I think these lizards are naturally feeding on ground foods like worms and roaches, some flowers, frogs and tadpoles, they seem to have no troubles catching tadpole in puddles.

Foods I haven’t tried are slugs, snails, small crustaceans like land snails.

Do you think lateralis will hide ASAP from the dragons? Do they climb on branches?
Do you think the slow moving orange spot are better suited for the dragons, in the sense that they don’t stress them?

Rgds

The color change from advertising female coronata to the leave me alone dark color of a gravid coronata?

Did not see this with my variants. They are more brown but I did notice that they too were a bit darker while gravid.

I am thinking that my large armata may be getting close. Still not digging but this morning she hissed when I got close to her. She is not normally one to hiss, a very calm and mild armata normally!
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Marcia - FroggieB Dragons
www.froggieb.com/MHDHome.html

This sounds good to me! Defensiveness is a good sing!

Are they investigating the leaf litter in anyway?

My best nesters don’t, they just go down once and nest, then feed like theirs no tomorrow.

The leaf litter appears to be untouched!
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Marcia - FroggieB Dragons
www.froggieb.com/MHDHome.html

I just put some oak leaves in with Dixie. I was going to wait until I was sure she was gravid, but now I think she is! She hasn't gotten darker, but I have caught her digging. Marcia, I told you about it, a few weeks ago she dug a little, and then stopped. Then, today I caught her scratching around a little. Then she went to an area by the water dishes, and I think she was surveying it for a nest.

The area is actualy inset into the land, by about two inches, due to waterdishes on two of the four sides. The other two sides are the wall of the Viv. So she has a nice secure little area, the only problem is the substrate there is not suitable for digging.

So, then I dug a hole and filled it in with shreds of freshly picked oak leaves, I'll see how that works. I also temporarily heated the nesting area that she had dug in a few times, I'll see if she seems more interested in the area if it is a little warmer.

But now I want to bring up something I found interesting. Dixie is corontata, as I have come to believe, and she is staying with a male capra, Zhepher. I don't think they seem interested in each other, but Ihave noticed both times Dixie started to dig, Zhepher goes down and messes with her. I'm not sure exactly what he does, but whatever it is, it is interfering with the nesting process.

I don't think it is a problem yet, but has anyone ever noticed this before, males messing with females trying to lay?

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Ryan

my males always stay clear of the gravid females. However, I have never kept mixed species together so can't say if this would make a difference or not. If he continues to bother her I would consider moving him to another viv for the time being for her sake. No need adding extra stress that might prevent her laying.
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Marcia - FroggieB Dragons
www.froggieb.com/MHDHome.html

Yeah, well like I said, I'm not sure exactly what he is doing, but both times she started to dig he was right there with her. I do wish I could keep my coronata in one Viv and Capra in another. If I could do this I would also like to establish a breeding pair of capra, but with two males together I don't know how that will work out.

After I move Zhepher Dixie continues to dig, so like I said, I don't think it is a problem YET. But I'll see how it goes...
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Ryan

The armata went absolutely nuts over the grasshoppers I gave them but then hoppers do habitate all levels of crops. I know there are photos of them in from the wild with them eating some of the most beautiful hoppers I have ever seen!

I hate keeping crickets though! Won't do it!

I do think they would tend to dig and forage a lot though and have feed off deformed mealworm beetles which the young animals take with greed. I am sure that in the wild if it moves and they spot it they take it!

I have not tried frogs or tadpoles but these are not abundant in my area, too arid here. In Omaha there were cricket frogs that would have been awsome size for them to feed on but up here just an occasional toad or leopard frog.

Also slugs and snails were abundant, a nusiance, in Omaha, but up here, again, it is just too dry and you rairly see any. I have found that they will take the slugs but getting them is almost impossible. I would think they would take the smails as well and would think the soft shelled ones would be an added source of mineral.

As for the lateralis hiding, I am not yet sure. I am planning to try to feed these from a dish as they are really fast moving roaches with long legs. I am sure they will climb too. Like I said before though, I haven't yet tried them as I am still building my colony. I am just hopeful that they do work out!
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Marcia - FroggieB Dragons
www.froggieb.com/MHDHome.html

When I return from Vietnam, I will have samples of all acanthosaura natural foods.
The food relation study is one aspect I neglected in my work with varanids.

Working with smaller species allows me this luxury.

About the orange spot, do you feed those from a bowl?
Have you seen your lizards get bored of feeding on them?

Sorry for all the questions, but who else can I ask?

Id also like to hear about damnitbonnie on her experience with roaches, where is she?

rgds

I am anxious to hear the results of your field study on diet. I think this is important.

I do feed the orange spot from a bowl. A few get loose and they do eventually get caught by either me or the dragons, depending on how long it takes to find them of course! ; )

I don't know where Bonnie is, haven't seen her on either forum. I just shot her an email to see if she is alright.

Hope she is just on vacation or something!

I haven't seen them tire of the roaches really. You just have to find the right size for them. What they really liked were the lobsters but I had to feed them from tongs as they climb everything. I couldn't have them get loose or dear hubby would have blown the whistle on everything! LOL!!

The non-climbers are much safer in that regard! I do try to vary things a bit and that is why I still feed the earthworms. I put these in a bowl too but with a small amount of soil. I sink the bowls into the substrate a bit to make them look a little more natural for the adults.

I am really anxious for the Lateralis to prosper so that I can see how they react to them. They ar very quick and I would think that the dragons would be very attracted to their movements.
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Marcia - FroggieB Dragons
www.froggieb.com/MHDHome.html

I'm back. Went to the NARBC show this weekend. Had fun.

I find the lateralis to be very fast. I've tried feeding from several sized bowls and always get loose roaches in the tank. My armata tank has a small colony started. I try to pick out the eggs. The armata don't seem to be very interested but maybe I haven't hit on the right size yet.
I've put small nymphs in with the baby capra and they go unnoticed also.
When feeding the others I put them in a cup (like the ones you get Betas in) and put it in front of the dragon trying to keep it's feet out of the cup. I still get some that bolt over the dragon.

Steve, At the show I found some of the clay balls you use. I got enough for one tank to start. The dealer says I can accomplish the same thing with gravel. Also said I should put some filter floss (which is actually batting from a fabric store) between the substrate and clay. He was selling peices for $10. Nice markup.

Ryan, I've been taking Monroe out of the tank when the females get big. Otherwise he just chases them around. I did notice that some of the other females were curious and came down to investigate when one of them started digging. Genie seemed to be protecting her nest even after she covered it. She ran at me and hissed when I started to remove the eggs. If I had waited a bit longer I believe she would not have done this. None of my other dragons have showed this behavior. Don't know if it makes a difference but she is a wild caught and the I've only had her for about 6 months.

Bonnie
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BONNIE

Ok this is important for me to know before I order the roaches.

If I understand correctly lateralis are to fast for the dragons?

Do you think they stress them out?

Pleas give me your opinion on them, plus and cons.

It seem like Marcia’s orange spots are a better roaches then lateralis, from what I can make out of this.

The reasons I can’t stop the crickets now, even dough they drive me nuts! Is because dragons feed on them and never seem to get bored, they are stimulated buy the movement and taste as they always get there belie full. This regardless of how annoying they are to keep, makes all the difference in the world for dragons.

I am hopping some roaches have these qualities, I tried hissers and they are no good for my dragons, even when assist feeding they spit them out like chicken liver.

I also tried a few beetles like mealworm and super worm beetles, they don’t like them.

What have you guys tried?
rgds

I haven't had any luck with any other beetles either although when I get mealworm beetles that don't fully morph deformed wings, like pupae with legs walking around; they eat them like candy! If only there were some way to make them all morph deformed like that!

I have seen them take the pupae of the superworm with gusto but only if I hold them so that they wiggle real well. They love these. Also the pupae of the silkworms. Any pupae that wiggle they seem to love.

They also love all sort of caterpillar that is safe to feed. I have great results feeding silkworms and hornworms but find the hornworms to be way to costly. I just had my first 2nd generation silkworms hatch today. It has taken months! I don't know that 3 worms out of a few eggs are worth it but free food is free food! I don't mind buying the eggs though and in the spring and early summer I just collect the mulberry leaves for chow. The rest of the year I buy the powder and make it. Costs a bit but they love the silks! I don't like them as a steady diet but mixed with the roaches I think my animals do well.

Of the roaches I have to agree that the orange spot are the best I have used. I like the lobsters but didn't like the escapees. The armata loved them and took them with greed from the tongs but it is very time consuming tong feeding 7 hungry animals! They can pack away a lot of full-grown lobsters in a feeding too. If you have time and patience though these are very good and are great breeders! I never got the hang of picking out the smaller ones for the young animals though. I am not one to handle bugs too well!

The orange spots however are so easy. I shake them into a dog crock and with my rubber glove on I pick out the adults. Then I pick out the 5/8-3/4" nymphs for the adults, then the 3/8-1/2" nymphs for the juvies, and the 3/8" and smaller go to the smallest kids. Of course all get a good dusting and then into a bowl with chow and a slice of apple or carrot for feeding. Trust me, they don't last long. The babies gorge themselves! The adults are a bit more conservative!

I will never get rid of my mealworm colony either. Although they are not my favorite feeder, or my MHDs, they are available in an emergency. I find that sometimes they are what the hatchlings take first. They are also what my coronata variants take when they will take nothing else in the winter.

I have also just recently started a colony of mini-mealworms. I am not sure how well they are doing yet but I do know that the hatchlings really love these fast moving little worms. So, I feel it would be foolish to not have them on hand when a clutch hatches.

I would love to have a ready source of grasshoppers and snails but haven't been able to figure that one out yet. I chased down a fella that supposedly had snails and made arrangements to purchase but when it came down to final price and shipping he stopped replying to my emails! Funny how that happens! Me thinks he was maybe harvesting garden snails and had not permits or something. Who knows!

Anyway, If anyone else does find some great feeders do be sure to share. I know that there have to be foods that we are missing here.

Also jobi, on the fruit and flower note, I recall from that article that even it noted the fruits and flowers. Is there anything we have available that would be a comparable that would be worth trying to offer? Have you tried any fruits? Any flowers?
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Marcia - FroggieB Dragons
www.froggieb.com/MHDHome.html

I don’t know if these are the same as your mini meal worms? They occur naturally in all my cages with dirt, all my babies go crazy for them, so I started breeding them with my meal worms. In the photo you can see a meal worm pupae for size comparison.

I fund something pretty interesting in my immediate area, theirs a large tobacco farmer that will let me harvest horn worms and allow me all the tomato leafs to feed them.

He has 2 type of horn worms, the larger one in his tobacco fields and smaller in the tomatoes, he also mentioned and other type of bug that may interest me.

Also an other guy actually wants to invest on nets so that I can help him ride of the grass hoppers in his fields, this may very well lead to commercialisation?
In any case it will make my lizards happy.

As for roaches I don’t see much of a future for them with my animals, I will try the orange spots just to see how they do. But will forget lateralis for now.

2 years ago I released 20 small land snails in my garden, mostly because they are pretty, but also to eventually feed a few lizards, these have multiplied so much that we find them all over town. Theirs a zillion in my garden but haven’t tried them with my dragons yet, I was kind of keeping them for pink tong skinks.

All my dragons will eat flowers I offer them, not often but they do eat them once in a while, I offer what’s available from my yard, dandelions, trifle flowers, capucine, rose, tulips.

They eat some fruits but not often, again from my yard, yellow prunes, cherries, strawberries, raspberries, ground cherries, tomato’s witch they lick and sap on.

They absolutely love tree frogs, but I am still debating on witch species I will breed for them, probably whites? As I am not allowed to breed those from my garden, and I don’t want to feed them either.

An other possible food is a large larva, probably from a moth? Apparently loggers find them when cutting trees, a guy I buy wood chips from assures me I can collect 1000 in one afternoon springtime. Will see next spring.

thanks for the help!

Steve, Check out www.minimealworms.com They have video of the worms and how active they are.

Marcia, I tried to start a colony of them but wasn't succesful. What did you do?. I'm thinking maybe I didn't have them in a warm enough place. I also keep a mealworm colony just in case I hit a dry spell with other feeders. Good back up.

I wondered how you sorted out the roaches. I don't do well touching them either. If one gets on my hand I flail about till it's off. Bet that looks funny. I'm going to start an orange spot colony I guess. Slower is better.

I tried something called spikes ( a fly larva I think) but they got a cool reception. Not lively enough. I still haven't found out what twisters are.

I've had good luck with the hornworms but even at 100 (always overcounted) for $30 they are steep. I'm pretty much using worms, roaches, and crickets with the odd feeder thrown in.
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BONNIE

Thanks Bonnie the link worked but I wasn’t able to see the videos, but I think they are quit similar, mine are much faster then mealworms and dragons love them more then any other food.
I breed them in with the mealworms in the same bins, 2 species competing produce more. I prefer carrots over potatoes and feed my regular dog food and chicken mash, I spray water on them every day. I agree with the publicity that babies will grow faster on them.
They sure help me with mine, and will not do without them.

Last night I talked hours with my indo friend about natural foods acanthosaura might be feeding on, clearly there are more then 50 types of leaf like katydids and grass hoppers in numbers, these could represent a large part of acanthosaura’s diet.

There are 100s of beetles that lay there larva’s in the leaf litter, these can also be an easy meal for dragons, he suggested that leaches might be more abundant then earth worms, spiders and millipedes are numerous and could be part of acanthosaura diet.

Tree frogs lay motionless and can only be an occasional meal, tadpoles on the other hand are often laid in puddles and move a lot, they make an easy meal for dragons.

All in all theirs plenty of insect for dragons to feed and never get bored, however most of these are nocturnal insects, can it be that our favourite dragons also feed at night?

Don’t know but I will set up a moon light ambience and see if the do.

Rgds

Jobi, Your night question is a good one. I have found myself in the reptile room late at night due to time constraints on occasion cleaning and feeding roachs and silkworms and such.

Of course if I'm cleaning the insects it is also the perfect time to be harvesting a few to put into the babies vivs, right?

Anyway, I figure so what if its midnight, put the roaches in the bowls so that the babies will be able to feed in the morning. Nope! They hear me open their tank, see the roaches, and wham! No roaches are left for morning!

Of course this may not be a true test because I would have the ceiling light on for the moment but then I have watched as they continue to feed even after I turn off the light, just filtered light coming in from the next room over and that is faint as they are in the basement.

Funny to watch them feeding in the dark!
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Marcia - FroggieB Dragons
www.froggieb.com/MHDHome.html

I just got confirmation from Malayan friend about dragons feeding at night on moth caterpillars and katydids. And a photo of dragon taken at night near the ground feeding.

I am starting to think those hornworms and grass hoppers are quit valuable as a food source.

I'm thinking the green color plus the activity stimulates them to eat. This clutch likes the minimealworms but go crazy for small hornworms. They snatch right out of each others mouths.

I'll have to try again to start a colony of minis.
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BONNIE