Reptile & Amphibian Forums

All,
I came across an interesting account of oak poisoning in Maders' Reptile and Amphibian Medicine and Surgery. It reptorted that there were at least two accounts of tortoises housed outdoors beneath oak trees dying from ingesting the leaves. There was also a note about an Iguana with similiar problems, but who did not expire. Though the chance that any horned lizard would ingest even a part of a leaf is remote, the risk is there. Also, crickets might eat them and then be consumed by the lizard(s)... Just a note of caution. I hope it helps.

EMWhite

Oh my good!
Thanks for this information, to think iv been using oak leafs as litter for all my feeders and reptiles for 20 years with excellent success makes me sick.

WOW I must have been lucky, real lucky.

Can you imagine all the birds dying from ingesting such toxic insects???

I see iv wasted my time,

jobi,
I too was stunned when I read it. Since you were probably using dry leaves, the fluids and such inside the actual leaf were probably all dried up, lessining or removing the toxcicity of them.(?) I'm glad though, you've never had problems. There probably isn't much danger in using them in the enclosures of carniviorous reptiles as the chances for ingestion are so slim, but I suppose the danger is still there. Glad to have been of help.

EMWhite

sorry I was being sarcastic and rude!
I see you are trying to help and being honest about it.

I tot you where pulling my leg a little, with the oak leaf story.

Let me share what I think about this in a more polite way.
Oak leafs are the food of many insects witch in turn are food for many animals.

I am not saying what you read is wrong, but I am not saying its right either.

Working with animals have made me realise that everything is subjective, my observations and others observation are all subject of interpretation.

This applies to every body from the common keeper to the academic master, regardless of who makes the observation it doesn’t guaranty its validity.

Living organism like plants and bugs develop toxins to fight off predators, this in most cases is not fatal but repulsive, surely the bitter taste of a caterpillar will ensure its survival. You do understand that this equally applies to plants, this is why some plants are toxic part of the year and comestible the rest of the year.

What your researchers have failed to see in there (highly speculative) observation, is the very pour husbandry of the torts involved.
First a toxicology axmen should have been performed on the torts liver, then if positive and in correlation with oak leafs, then yes without a dough a confirmed diagnosis can be asserted.

However! This is where I am getting at.
Any biologist will tell you that animals feeding regularly on toxic plants become addictive, you see horn worms natural diet is deciduous forest leafs, they soon get hooked on particular species, but if near tomatoes or tobacco fields they will start feeding on them exclusively, studies have shown that such addicted insects will starve to death rather then go back to a normal diet.

The fellows with the torts did not understand how deficient there husbandry was, as they would have corrected the situation lone before it became a toxic problem, the torts regular diet should have been monitored.

Given a choice vegetarian reptiles feed on food they love, they avoid bitter tasting food or unfamiliar foods, this is why Iv been keeping uromastyx on a mixture of leaf sand and dirt for many years without problem, they have better options.

I don’t know if you understand what I am saying, if not don’t worry just do what feels alright to you.

Plants secret most of there toxins in late summer and fall, it’s a survival tactic, most insects will stop feeding on them at this time, but those that do become toxic, I stop feeding fields plankton this time of year.

jobi,
Excuse me, I'm absolutly horrible with sarcasm. Even to my face I don't always catch it! I realize what you are saying about the leaves, however, the tortoises were Sulcatas, thus grazers by nature and undiscriminating towards foodstuff. The most commonly implicated toxin found in oak trees are in the immature leaves in the spring, or in the freshly fallen acorns also in the spring. Toxicosis from oak is produced by high concentrations of tannic acid and its metabolites, gallic acid and pyrogallol. These toxins cause ulcer-like lessions in both the upper and lower GI tract, as well as liver lesions and death of renal tubular tissue. In the totoises in question their stomachs were full of partially digested oak leaves. Extensive necrosis was found in the mouth, esophagus, stomach, and kidneys. Basically, the leaves destroy various tissues throughout the body. This, ovbiously, results in death. This is what I meant when I said oak leaves were toxic when ingested.

Regards, EMWhite

You missed the point, reptiles don’t feed on highly toxic plants, unless they are starving.
Lethal doses are not immediate but long term, all animals are designed to expel toxins from the organism. Low dosage are pretty insignificant in combination to other foods.

In this case its obvious these torts where neglected and starving, I know we started breeding torts back in 85 and to this day produced 1000s sulcatas, leopards. All these are housed with leaf litter all summer long, we also breed tegus, chuckwallas, uromastyx year round on leaf litter. You have to understand this is not a 6 months affair, I have been doing this decades and never experienced intoxication in anyway.
Add to this that most of my feeders are raised on leaf litter.

This sure makes me laugh at this particular study, no dough it will join the rest of the useless crap the net is feeding us.

No offend this is not about you, it’s about peoples and there bad husbandry practise.

jobi,
I see now your point. There was no further information than what I posted. This is a little off topic, but if sometime in the future you are able to post a few pics of your caging methods for your horned lizards I'd love to see some of them. I came across a picture of some "angled" cages back to back, in one of your older posts that looked very nice and cool. I'm always looking for ideas for mine. If you don't have enought time to, don't worry it's no biggie. Thanks a bunch.

EMWhite