Reptile & Amphibian Forums

You see this first thing in the morning!

Back female starting to nest, young male feeding, older male mating a female that nested 3 days ago, all this under the watchful eyes of a very gravid female that prefers to sit and watch the show,

Oh yes if you wonder why there’s a container full of eggs in this cage? Well my incubator is filled to capacity with 145 eggs, so these will incubate in this cage for now.

I just wanted you guys to see life events, unfortunately most captive reptiles live a stagnant life because keepers don’t understand there needs.

Have a good day!

Sorry I forgot the message I wanted to express with this photo!

Look at this simple unfurnished cage, what it lakes in decoration it makes up for in functionality. That’s what I wanted to explain in the lower thread.
This is a cage that meats the needs of the reptiles not the needs of the keeper, those who don’t understand this will fail repeatedly. I know peoples who keeps pairs for many years without them having a single egg. Others have been working with tree monitors 10-15 years and never hatched an egg, yet they are exactly the same as these dragons to keep.
But the problem is never the lizards it’s the keepers who for some mystical reasons like to complicate simple matters.
rgds

That is a very busy cage. Starts the day off right.
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BONNIE

Are you saying apeal is bad or functionality is more important?

I have a ton of plants in my Viv yet I do make sure it covers all basic needs for the dragons.

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Ryan

Ryan your cage is awesome, and I truly understand the work and your pride about it.

This is why I hate to say this, but it will not offer you the results you are hopping for, trust me iv been there, I was building such cages before you where born, and I must admit having no success.

I understand your thinking on these lizards being arboreal and such, but you are failing to understand many aspect of husbandry I have posted about mostly for you.

When your ready I will help you, but you must be objective and not let emotions keep you from progressing, as you did with the cedar post!

Remember I am here to help, not to cause you trouble.

Rgds

jobi,
I would be interested to know what aspects of husbandry his cage fails to provide. My pair are in a cage half the size with a plethora of plants and wood. My female is gravid, something I've hoped for. Perhaps this ties in with your opinion about endoparasites? All my lizards are de-wormed, then placed in densly planted, foliage laden, enclosures. One need only look at the picture you posted of your friend in Vietnam to realize that this can't be too far from "natural" for them. Half the reason I like these lizards is because of the cagigng possibilities for them. Let me know what you think, if nothing else, don't wait for Ryan to become "ready" and tell me. I'm interested to hear this.

EMWhite

I meant to hit preview, not post. But I saw EMwhite's post and I'd just like to say, your Viv is just a little less than half mine. (mine is 6'x3'x2')

But I also wouldn't say about the cages before I was born thing either. I think you would actually be suprised...
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Ryan

ryan2691,
I'm sorry, I didn't mean to cause difficulty. I was just making the point that your enclosure is much larger than mine. I was somewhat, how do I say, irritated about what was posted towards you. Now, it was most likely not anyone's intention to cause hurt feelings etc., but we are all keepers together and while some may or may not have more experience than others (or different goals), there is no reason for anyone to talk down to anyone else. I know you certainly don't need me to talk for you, but I have (or at least I think I do), the same philosophy as you do concerning these lizards; The more natural the better. Again, sorry for the miscalculation

Regards, EMWhite

Oh, I was just trying to point out a little humor... I guess it is harder when you aren't talking in person: )
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Ryan

ryan2691,
Thanks, I did get the humor. Reminds me of turcks, and whose got the biggest one!

Regards, EMWhite

I meant trucks.

The first thing I don’t want to do is offend anyone in any way.

As you already know I do many things differently then what most keepers do, this is not because I am a num head or any such thing, I do what works for my lizards period.
If it doesn’t correlate with what experts says, I don’t care this is there problem not mine.

Your cage is more like 1/3 the size of Ryan’s cage, I like them because they are easy to manage, sure in the wild they have a zillion more space, but they also have the sun to control there environmental needs, our captives on electricity. The challenge reside in balancing usable energy and avoiding wasted energy.

The main problem with Ryan’s cage is wasted energy, it flows out from the open top and sides, to compensate this energy lose higher wattage is needed, this increases the vacuum effect, heat raises and brings water vapours out with it, this make it hard to control the temps on the lower part of the exhibit, these are farther affected by radiating cold from the floor. This type of set up leads to slow chronic dehydration.

Correcting this is easy by insulating the floor and closing the top, the use of 3 low wattage lamps set at different levels will allow a more usable gradient.

Apart from the above territoriality is a main concern in larger cage, male soon claim the upper part where all the heat is, this leaving females to slowly perish, multiple level bulbs really helps prevent this.

Plants; I love them but working with reptiles, its better to use plants outside your cages then inside. In nature reptile use plants to conceal them from predatory.

In captivity concealment offers no benefits, it nourishes a basic behaviour that slows your animals progression, they will often prefer to stay hidden then feed, in most cases they will go in hiding when you enter the room, this make it hard to make observations.

In open cages they soon see the cage as there safe heaven and lose the fear of keepers, in no time they see us as food provider and start showing behaviours you’d never see otherwise.

Yesterday I saw the exact same situation with an other group of different specie, I enjoy being able to witness these events, it make my work more enjoyable.

All in all if it wasn’t for temp and hydration control id love to house my lizards in walk in enclosure.

Also when you think about it, these dragons are quit sedentary, space is not an issue.

But pleas don’t fool yourself, only reptiles in prim conditions reproduce consitently, this has nothing to do with being a breeder or not, its about good husbandry.
rgds

Brilliant! Couldn't agree more with you. But I can say much of that is un-true.

I don't know where to begin...

My dragons are especialy active when I am around. They usually jump from there perch out on to me, and happily jump back in when it is time. They hunt on there own, since I allow crickets to live in their Viv freely. I have seen my MHDs bathe in front of me, drink, all sorts of things. They are active when I am not around too. They leave signs.

My dragons are not territorial at all. In fact they all stay right on thier perches, and return after visits to the ground. They almost never leave their favorite spots. Plus, they don't really use the basking spot.

Most of the plants are on the outside f the Viv, creating a sort of concealment. But they aren't shy when it comes to feeding.
and last of all, you are right about the Viv design. Although it isn't too bad. I still keep the humidity constant and rather high, and Temp. variation lies within the room temperature. Room temperature is the base temp for my Viv, basking spots and warm areas add to it.

and last, you said radiating cold from the floor. Heat moves from warm areas to cool areas, never the other way around. So a cold floor would actually draw the heat downwards, to an extent. Plus it is upstairs so the convection from the lower part of the house would in turn heat the upstairs floor wich would heat the ground of the Viv. So yeah...
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Ryan

So a cold floor would actually draw the heat downwards

This is totally false, its physic

Agreeing with me or pretending to makes no difference, you will see how your lizards do in time.

your cage is placed beside a downward stair case, this led me to believe it was in a basement, not important.

I provided information's, your free to use it or not.

LoL, the cage isn't going to heat up because the floor is cold.

sorry.

The heat created by the lights will move towards the cool. That doesn't mean it heats up, that means heat from the lamp will be used instead of simply rising. More simply put, the temperature from the floor will average out with the temperature from the light.

If you put a hot block of whatever outside during the winter, the object cools down right? Well, not really. Actually, the area around the object heats up. You see, temperature is actually energy. The more energy, the hotter it is. So energy from an object evenly divides itself with its surrounding area, or averaging out.

You get the effect of radiating cold, but it is actually the other way around.

LoL, I could go on and on about this subject (along with almost every other subject) but you propably don't care and it has nothing to do with Mountain Horned Dragons anyway.

By the way, what do you mean when you talk about a downwards staircase? Elaborate...
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Ryan

Oh!

After review I relized that you mistook the architechture of my roof for a staircase.

Funny...
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Ryan

Yes I did, sure looks steep!

I am always interested in learning, from you or anyone!

I will apologise about criticizing your cage when you start popping some eggs, then you will proven your point very well. Meanwhile if you don’t mind I will keep doing what works for me.

I need a REAL breeding pair before I get eggs. And I can't just go buy a MHD any day. In fact, I don't think I will be able to buy a MHD anytime soon. So my only hope is that my female who I think is miraculously gravid, lays fertile eggs. If they are fertile and hatch, I will be able to breed the F1 generation to one of my other females. I don't think it is going to happen.

I could get her to lay duds though.
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Ryan

jobi,
I have many things to say about the information you posted, some in agreement and some not. As there are multiple sections I wish to comment on I will go down the list.

Chronic Dehydration: This has proven to be a problem with me as
well. I used to house a pair in a screen cage 4 feet tall, and
I always had the problem of water easily passing through the screen sides (when sprayed etc.). However, so long as there is some water source provided within the cage, the lizards will learn to use and depend upon this as a primary source of
hydration. if they were dehydrated they would spend all, or at least most of their time, in or near the water source in an attempt to remain hydrated. Daily mistings also help prevent this, as most will drink from water that runs down their faces, or from plant leaves wihin the enclosure.

Temperature gradient: We all know that this is very important to all lizards. I have found having one slightly higher watage lamp at the top of the enclosure to be sufficient. They will go where the heat is when they have need of it. But I feel that it is a valid point to say that this can lead to aggression and territorial displays. I have had this problem.

Plants: I don't understand why they should be placed outside the tank? Why not allow your lizards cover while at the same time making your cage more visually appealing? This is, regardless of whoever might think otherwise, how they live in the wild, and can thus not be "stressful" or inducing of aenorexia. My male armata is very shy and flighty, but that doesn't hinder his comsumption of foodstuff. Observations made of animals who are not provided sufficient hiding places, are observations of tamed/domesticated Animals who are not acting the way they would in the wild.

Viewing Pleasure of the Animals: I can't agree with you more, seeing my animals out and about, watching them react with and to one another makes it all worthwhile for me as well.

Breeder, yes or No: I do agree that it does require good husbandry to indce these lizards to breed, but what exactly entailed in good husbandry is debatable, often endlessly.

Regards EMWhite

First let me say,
I wish for all of you guys to be successful and enjoy your lizards to the max.

As my wife points out every day, I am wrong on many things, I have no problems with being wrong, my objective is not to tell you guys what to do, its to tell you what not to, and even then I can be wrong.

Guys like Ryan are the future of this hobby, no dough they will surpass us in many ways, but for start if I can make things easier for them, then why shouldn’t I.

Now to address some of your questions, witch I thing I did in the prior post, but maybe not well enough.

Plants, I avoid them because they conceal animals from keeper and preys, they also conceal from cage mates this affecting socialisation at least to some degree.
Not saying you should not use them, I am saying my lizards do better without them.

Hydration is much more complex then a simple water bowl, atmospheric moisture is what reptiles need, do the test for your self.

Take hydro readings in your present cage set up, then close your top and replace your bulb for a low 25w, redo the hydro test, you will see a huge difference, not only this but you will not need to spray very often, this is micro climate, a usable energy saving reptile habitat.

A thriving lizard is one that doesn’t struggle to keep alive, it can then use energy to reproduce.

rgds

I never even used cedar... but even if I had, what I was arguing about was mainly: why would companies such as Zoomed and Exo-terra sell it if it where obviously that bad. But I have never even seen it for sell so obviously generic companies or just plain bad people sell. And I probably wouldn't have bought it anyways.

I knew you where speaking to me!

But Jobi, I am not looking for 175 eggs in an incubator and lizards taking over my life. You have to realize I don't keep these lizards as a hobby or potentiel buisness. I already have those! These are 100% pets to me. But I take them much more seriously than a dog or cat. And these forums and stuff are just extra (I like to take things much more seriously than I have to).

So, feel free to tell what you think I should do. I'd love to hear it. But jsut keep in mind you have no idea what my motives are or what I expect from my lizards just because you've read a few sentences that I have posted on the internet.

By the way, if they are arboreal, than they should neat at least a few feet of hight. That is just commen sense.

Plus, I've seen results! Maybe it is not what you are looking for, but I sure am satisfied!
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Ryan