Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hi All, (and I apologize in advance for the length of this post)

I’m new here, and registered today because I’m concerned for the well being of the wild brown anoles who live in our Naples, FL. lanai. I have great affection for the lizards, and can identify nearly all them who hang out nearest the house. There is a 50 foot long bank of floor to ceiling windows & sliding glass doors facing the lanai, so I have a great view of what goes on out there. The lanai itself is screened in, but has lots of areas w/ lush vegetation & trees, as well as a paved, stone surface. The lizards spend much of the day out in the open, on the stone, and, of course, they hang out in the vegetation as well. There are about 15 that I see regularly, and I can identify most of them easily. This past Monday, Truly Nolen Pest Control came to service the house. As I do every time, I told the man NOT to use anything on the lanai, due to my concern for the lizards, and usually he complies, but this time I was HORRIFIED to find him on the lanai soaking the plant life where the lizards retreat and the lower area of the sliding glass doors, where they also spend a lot of time, with pesticide spray. The doors & tracks were so wet after he finished that it looked like someone had sprayed them with a water hose. I was terribly upset. The man assured me that the spray was 100% safe and that a single lizard would have to absorb 50 gallons of the stuff for any harm to occur. (As an aside, I remember asking him a few years ago if the pesticide would harm the lizards and his reply was, “Do you want it to harm them?”, which sounded suspicious and really unnerved me - either it would or would not harm them! He just wanted to make sure he gave me the answer I wanted to hear, which is what I fear he was doing this time when he said it would not harm them) The minute he left, I gathered a bucket, sponge & mop, and set out to try to clean up what I could. Unfortunately, many of the anoles were already out & about in the sprayed areas. Of course, my very presence caused them to retreat and I did what I could to remove the spray, but I fear it was not enough. There was still lizard activity that same afternoon (Mon.), but, the next day (Tues.), I noticed that there were dramatically fewer lizards around. I saw only 3 all day, which is something that I’ve never experienced. Since Tue., I’ve still not seen more than the same 3 out there, and 1 of the 3 is a new resident, which is another potential issue...

In addition to spraying my lanai when specifically instructed not to, the exterminator left the door open and let in a new lizard. This new resident is the biggest female I’ve ever seen and immediately started acting like a bully. The reigning “Queen of the Lanai” is called Rusty (she has a red head, like the lizard another poster was inquiring about, but I digress... Rusty has ruled the lanai for well over a year and is ALWAYS out there. Under her rule, everybody got along pretty well, basked out in the open, and did their own thing (the lanai is a real Girls Club - I have not seen a male around in months). On Monday afternoon, a couple of hours after the spraying, this new bully started gunning for Rusty, who bolted into a grass plant w/ the aggressor in hot pursuit. After that incident, Rusty was not seen.

Concurrent with the above incidents came a cooling in the weather. I truly hope this is the reason for the retreat, but perhaps that is just wishful thinking. Tuesday, the day the all but those 3 lizards 1st disappeared, was the coolest day of the year and reached a high only in the mid 70s (whereas the weather had previously been in the 80’s & 90s). Yesterday was a bit warmer than that, and today the high was 83, so I was hoping to see more activity. Unfortunately, I did not.

Yes, all of this is leading somewhere – a plea for knowledgeable opinions as to why I have seen only 3 lizards on my lanai since Tuesday. Could it be the spraying? Are they all terrified of the new bellicose bully in town and afraid to come out into the open, where the bully is now often seen? Or, might the 1st onset of cooler weather have caused a mass retreat? I just hope they’re all alive and well, but I’m really worried. Any info would be much appreciated. Please help if you can, and thanks for reading this long-winded post.
Best Regards,
Rusty’s Minion

I completely understand your concern and anger over the exterminator's behaviour, but I have to point to another thing: Brown anole (Anolis sagrei) is not native to US. It is a Cuban intruder, the true biodiversity pest that pushes the (only) native green anole (Anolis carolinensis) to extinction. In fact, not mindless spraying of insecticides but precisely targeted measures (though likely very difficult to apply) should be taken to try to eliminate A. sagrei and safe the original US herpetofauna.

I really think that there should be less patriotism in the allowing or disallowing of the species. Green anoles are present in mighty vast numbers, and to be fair to the brown anoles, they are present in the US because they were put there by MAN. They didnt hop on a ferry, and they cant just hop on a ferry back either. Both are considered to be a pest, and both are still used to this day as snake food.

Why should the brown species suffer at the hands of man when it was we that put them on the mainland in the first place? They're only little lizards, but even so, who are we to decide whether one creature has more of a right to live than its cousin? Just because this one is "American" and the other is not. This one is green, that one is brown. We should remember instead how they got to the mainland in the first place, and leave them to their own devices.
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Kel

www.collaredlizards.co.uk
0:0:1 Timor Monitor
2:2 Collared Lizards
1:6 Green Anoles
1:0 Dune Scorpion
3:0 Imperial Scorpions
2:0 Desert Hairy Scorpions
0:1 Mexican Red Knee Tarantula

There could be something into your view, but green anole is not an introduced species. It is a native (and the only native) North American anole species, and I hear for the first time it is considered a pest (I am from EU). Brown anole is a pest, because it displaces the green one, the original species interconnected with its environment by millions of years of evolution. This is only a small example of the kind that caused major disasters in isolated areas worldwide: species introduced by man devastating original and priceless biodiversity.

I agree that what you say is correct, I myself am English born and Bred. I guess I should simplify what I was trying to say, in that, we as people introduced the Brown Anole to the mainland, and as a result the Green Anole suffers to an extent. From what I understand, and as an owner I've tried to read a lot, the green anole is present in vast in numbers throughout Florida, and as such is not facing extinction as a result of the introduction of the Brown anole. If it does, it is through human intervention by placing the brown anole on the mainland that will be the ultimate reason for the reduction in numbers of greens. I consider it wrong of us to have ever put the brown anole there in the first place, however it would again be wrong of us to wipe out the brown anoles on the mainland purely because we recognise we were wrong to put them there in the first place. Or because we believe the green anoles have right of way over the brown ones, based on the fact that it is not the brown anoles fault that it is there, or that it is not a native species. I think it would be impossible to eliminate them now without destroying the green populations with them anyway, so really they decide their own futures.

Torey I really do think you have a good case about the pesticides reducing food sources, And for Copper's mom......I would like to think that your favourite anoles have gone a little further from the plants they thrived in before, and kicked these new ones out of their homes, hence why they have moved "IN", since the other ones moved out. Next time you see your pesticide guy poke him in the eye and tell him he's in the wrong job, lol, he has a bad attitude

Hopefully they are flourishing in your garden somewhere, waiting for you to spot them some day, they probably all got bets on how long it will take too, lol

Hope this makes you feel better, I think if you had that many and it really was the pesticide you would have noticed a change in their condition before they disappeared and at least a carcass, the fact that this was not the case makes me inclined to go along with what Torey said. If you havent had a decent rainfall since then there is no reason why these new arrivals should survive if the old ones perished, so I think Torey is probably right.

Dont be sad, they're all happy somewhere, and if you're lucky they might just come back once the bug numbers increase, and the weather hots up again.
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Kel

www.collaredlizards.co.uk
0:0:1 Timor Monitor
2:2 Collared Lizards
1:6 Green Anoles
1:0 Dune Scorpion
3:0 Imperial Scorpions
2:0 Desert Hairy Scorpions
0:1 Mexican Red Knee Tarantula

I think you missed the point of actually decreasing the numbers of the brown anole. Easiest example of how the introduction of a non-native destroys the environment is the cane toad in australia. Look at what it has done to the environment there. now, that take into account with the brown anole. if native wild life is diminishing.... the non native species should be attended to in order to not lose the natural biodiversity in an environment.

Sorry but just because a species didn't put itself there, doesn't mean it is appropriate to not reduce their numbers in a region that they are not originally from.

Ivan, glad to see you are active on the forums.

Just to throw out a thought...

I know diddly about pesticides or the effects they might or might not have on the lizards, plus there's little you can do about it now anyway (except find a new exterminator).

BUT there's the possibility that the spraying destroyed the food supply, so maybe they've gone elsewhere to hunt?
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Torey
Eugene, Oregon, USA
1.1 Saharan Uros (Joe and Arthur)
3.1 Mali Uros (Spike, Turtle, Tank, and Lilly)
1.1 Ornate Uros (Scuttlebutt and Shazzbot)
0.1 Collared Lizard (Rorschach)
2.1 Green Anoles (Bowser, Sprocket, Leeloo)
1.1 Chubby Housecats (Roscolux and Jenny)

I called her "Copper", when her name is Rusty, lol. I read your post out loud to my partner and he said "Oh, they're so pretty, she should have called her Copper instead", I got mixed up, I'm sorry.

BTW, Rusty probably kicked that bully out of HER home, and thats probably why the new one has been forced to move into your garden, but dont worry, she'll probably be back, and if not I'm sure someone else will come along at some point and kick the bully into shape, lol
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Kel

www.collaredlizards.co.uk
0:0:1 Timor Monitor
2:2 Collared Lizards
1:6 Green Anoles
1:0 Dune Scorpion
3:0 Imperial Scorpions
2:0 Desert Hairy Scorpions
0:1 Mexican Red Knee Tarantula

Hello,
I must say I was very surprised to find my query had ignited a debate over whether or not the brown anoles deserve to exist in this country. They are here, they are very welcome on my lanai, and I want them to be safe and to thrive.
I just hope my beloved brown anoles are OK, and am concerned about them. Based on the concurrent scenarios I presented, I was hoping someone may be able to offer some insight as to what may have happened to them, and I do thank el-toro for the theory regarding diminished food supply, and the words of encouragement from Kellybee. I wish the anoles had a pesticide-free, bug laden garden to move to, but our lanai is completely enclosed, and all the plants were sprayed. The only way in or out for them is the door, which we have to keep shut, or else birds, rats, and snakes get in. Kellybee, you mentioned rain - we have not had any rain since the spraying. Do you think it would be a good idea to water all the planted areas in order for the bugs to return? Also, might there be something I could give them to eat (something non-bug, and easy for me to procure) that might sustain them, if they are still around somewhere in the lanai?

Thanks,
rustyrules

It might be worth contacting the Nolen company to ask what kind of pesticides were used, and whether they are harmful to your anoles. Also, maybe you could get a pressure spray bottle used in greenhouses to spray/dilute some of the chemicals from your plants?

I've bought curly winged flies on line before to feed to my anoles, they die off after a few days and wont eat your plants, so that might work, if they are hiding in your plants, feeling a little hungry somewhere this might entice them out, without doing any damage to your plants? They are really small too, not the big green window ledge buzzers you find in the house.

Personally I would try calling or emailing the company first to ask what they used and how it is likely to affect the anoles, I sent you a PM with their details on, it should show up in your email inbox.

BTW their site says that the technician should have left you a detailed report so it might say what he used on there?
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Kel

www.collaredlizards.co.uk
0:0:1 Timor Monitor
2:2 Collared Lizards
1:6 Green Anoles
1:0 Dune Scorpion
3:0 Imperial Scorpions
2:0 Desert Hairy Scorpions
0:1 Mexican Red Knee Tarantula

Hi Kelly,
And thanks so much for your help & support. The exterminator made notations as to what he did, but they are totally illegible. I think what I'll do is call and ask what was used, and then ask, "Is it effective against lizards?", presenting myself initally as one who may wish to eradicate them. Then, perhaps I'll get a true answer, after which I will stress that I wish to keep them safe and that any materials known to harm lizards are NOT to be used on my lanai in the future. (It just seems so suspicious that all my lizards are fine and thriving one day, and the next & following days, only 3 (incl. the new bully) remained. Now, today, I spotted only 1 out there. Meanwhile,in other areas of the yard (outside the lanai) & on the driveway, anoles are still present in decent numbers. I thoroughly hosed all areas of the lanai today with a spray attachment that simulates rain pretty well. I hope this helps them. The anoles are kind of like my pets and I very much want them to be safe & sound.
RR.

I think thats probably your safest bet, I would be heartbroken if it were me, I love my anoles, and everything else we keep (except for the scorpions, they belong to Stuart), lol

At least you have a way of finding out whether they are alive somewhere or not.

I forgot to mention that we sometimes give our anoles Peach flavoured baby food. They go crazy for it, and obviously it isn't live food. They also like Apple tart flavour too. We tried it after reading it in a book somewhere, and its a good source of vits and protein etc. Maybe that could work instead of the curly winged flies?

Also, I was thinking..... If he left the door open and the bully got in, maybe the others got out, because they were afraid of the man or didnt like the spray (Ours run a mile when we mist them every morning). I wonder if leaving the door open and supervising from a distance to make sure there are no snakes hovering in that direction might lure them back in? Long shot, but just a suggestion.

Please do let us know what the exterminators have to say, I really have my fingers crossed for you.

Good luck!!!
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Kel

www.collaredlizards.co.uk
0:0:1 Timor Monitor
2:2 Collared Lizards
1:6 Green Anoles
1:0 Dune Scorpion
3:0 Imperial Scorpions
2:0 Desert Hairy Scorpions
0:1 Mexican Red Knee Tarantula

Hi Kelly,
Unfortunately, I know the lizards were all enclosed in the lanai, and had no chance to escape because they came out right after the guy left - before I'd even had a chance to clean the stuff up , and the door was closed at this point (w/ the new bully now enclosed w/ them). It made me ill to see Rusty climbing right onto the hose, still wet w/ pesticide. I quickly opened the door & she ran away, but I'm sure her underbelly & hands & feet came into direct contact w/ the spray.

I went to a pet store today and spoke w/ a man who happened to know a great deal about the brown anoles here and their habits. He told me that, no matter what the exterminator may say, if a spray is lethal enough to kill insects, it can be lethal to the lizards as well. I’m still holding out hope that they are just in hiding, but I fear the worst.

Since the mass disappearance, as mentioned, I’ve seen only 3 lizards at varying times – the bully, a half-size young female, and a teeny female, approx. 1.25”L (not incl. tail). Even though it was only in the mid 70s today & cloudy, that teeny, skinny baby girl was out on the pavers having a grand old time eating bugs for quite a long while, as was the half-size. After my simulated rainstorm w/ hose yesterday we had a good, hard rain courtesy of Mother Nature last night, so maybe that helped the bug population - the lizards find lots of tasty bug action in the cracks of the pavers, where water collects. I think the 3 I’ve seen since Tue. must have somehow escaped the spray (maybe they were so deep into the plantings it did not reach them?) The little one is so small, I’m sure she would have been extremely vulnerable to the spray, if exposed. Because this little one, who has no meat on her bones, can enjoy herself outside in mid 70s overcast weather (and she was her normal color, not dark or stressed), I’m pretty sure the others would be out there too, - if they were still alive & well. I really miss my favorites, especially Rusty – they are like pets to me and I am very sad that they are MIA. Just in case they are still in there hiding somewhere, I took the your advice and placed blobs of peach baby food all over the place (as deep into the plantings as I could get), and I also read online that fruity Pedialyte can provide sustenance, so I placed little jar lids filled w/ that , as well as containers of plain water, all through the plantings. Maybe this is all for naught, but I have to explore every avenue I can to help my buddies, if they are still in there. Thanks again for all your helpful advice – I really appreciate it.

I am encouraged by the presence of the 2 young females (Glory & Micki), and still hold out hope that someday I’ll see Rusty, Mini Me, & the others again.
RR

.....to hear that it might not be as hopeful as you thought, but I'll keep my fingers crossed. Be sure to let us know if you hear anything, I guess that as they drink from drops of moisture on the leaves this might have caused them to become sick, though I still hope that they were just feeling under the weather and will be bouncing back at some point.

Its sad to hear that this might have been the case, but there is still at least a little hope. It wouldnt stop me from calling the exterminators though, if at the very least I would complain that the guy did exactly what you asked him not to do, and would not give you a straight answer.

All the same, I hope they are well, please do let us know if they re-appear, and good luck with the little ones that remain x x
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Kel

www.collaredlizards.co.uk
0:0:1 Timor Monitor
2:2 Collared Lizards
1:6 Green Anoles
1:0 Dune Scorpion
3:0 Imperial Scorpions
2:0 Desert Hairy Scorpions
0:1 Mexican Red Knee Tarantula

I see there is no update on here, but Rusty's mom emailed me last week to say that she has evicted the bully, and Rusty is BACK, underweight but feeding, and doing well by the sound of things. On top of this several others have returnerd to the Lanai also. Had a little tear in my eye, it was a really nice email to sit and read, and the nice lady that was so worried is elated. I figured she'd update in here but has not so I thought ya might like to know... YAY!!!
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Kel

www.collaredlizards.co.uk
0:0:1 Timor Monitor
2:2 Collared Lizards
1:6 Green Anoles
1:0 Dune Scorpion
3:0 Imperial Scorpions
2:0 Desert Hairy Scorpions
0:1 Mexican Red Knee Tarantula