Reptile & Amphibian Forums

IVe waiting for 3 days and both of the replies respinded what i said not to do!!! IM not trying to be mean or harsh But as I said I have no way to get bugs and no offenese to all you pacman lovers but I have one frog and I am not ordering bugs and having them in my house somewhere......I have a redtail boa and a anaconda to wotrry about I cant put all my effort in into my frog...dont get me wrog I love her and I think i take care of her well buty I cant feed anything but mice and fish....what I WAS asking is is a small mouse and a few fish good a week for now and thens witchting to once a week at a year old?? thanks for the help anyway
Mike

here is your answer....No.
now hit google and type how to care for horned frogs or pacman frogs then you can see you did zero research and want everyone else todo your own research.

Your frog is going to be very unhealthy and won't live very long if you don't feed it properly. Thats like you and me living on a diet of nothing but greasy hamburgers for our whole lives. If you can't take care of it properly, then what is the sense of having it?

Mike,
Hopefully you get this, I'm answering it awfully late. It is fine to feed your frog the mice and fish as long as you supplement it with something else. I would recommend feeding it earthworms. These can be purchased from any bait store or Wal Mart (don't tell me that there's not one of those around you). I would feed the worms most often, the fish sometimes, and the mice occasionally. Meaning if you feed say, three times a week, feed worms twice and fish once with a mouse thrown in in place of the fish once ever month or so. Or just feed worms with the occasional mouse/fish. So long as worms make up the bulk of the diet it should be fine. Best of luck to you, and be careful with that anaconda, eeek!

Evan

evan that is the most noobish post i have yet to see, this board has nothing but newbs. fish are fatty, mice are fatty, worms are "okay" if raised in proper conditions. you HAVE to have crickets as a staple diet no way around it, if you cant order them online or get them local find someone that can take care of that frog correctly.

krowleey,
I must say, I disagree with the worms being just "OK". I think they're quite a little bit better than OK. Lots of protein, some calcium (I was told they have that, I don't know as they have no bones), and some fat among other things. This would seem OK to me, if I'm wrong please let me know why as I feed mine a diet of mainly worms, again with no ill effect. Thanks for your concern and dedication.

Evan

they can contain ca if they are raised in the right conditions, going to your local fishing store your not getting much in the way of nutrition. they are not bad to feedm in fact i believe the frogs should be fed many many different foods. if i was to feed a crawler i sure would use repcal with d3 and still use herptivite. I use crickets as a staple, and pinkys once in awile, along with wax worms, and live bearing fish due to the fatty issue.

I agree completely. The more variety the better. I actually get my worms from my local pet store. Hopefully they are a little more nutritious than Wal Mart worms. (That sounds funny doesn't it?) Also, I too think that crickets should comprise a sizeable chunk of their diet, I have just found, with bigger frogs, worms to be more "filling". I only need 3 or four to get the job done, where as I would need 20-25 crickets to do the same. Take care, and keep up the good work!

Evan

Walmart worms and any other type of fishing bait are not healthy for captive feeding. Not because they are different in nutrition than any other worms, but just for the fact that they are raised in unsanitary conditions, and in many cases taken from the wild, bagged and sold. The majority of these worms are sure to be infested with all types of nasty parasites that you don't want to pass onto your frog or salamander or anything. If you are feeding worms, then make sure you get them from a reputable supply company and that they are intended for consumption by pets, not for fishing. Also, whether you feed worms or not, crickets should be the majority of the diet for a horned frog. I feed mine crickets, and mealwroms on occasion. Even more rarely I feed them earthworms, and even more rarely I feed them pinky mice. Feeder goldfish, in many cases are raised outside in ponds, and for that reason are also infested with all types of nasty parasites. I know this because I used to work in a petstore, and when we got feeder goldfish in I alwasy had to separate them from the waterbeetles, other insects and occasional tadpole that was mixed up with them.

CanadianFrog,
The worms commercially sold carry nematodes, which are harmless to the frogs. I know this because I feed worms to a variety of lizards and turtles, for whom I have periodical fecal exams performed. All of them have nematodes, the vet that sees them said that these were not necessary to treat. I have had ALL of these animals for well over a year (some for even longer), and I have had no problems. Store bought worms are fine. Again, if this sounds too risky for you (or whoever, I'm not targeting you per say), then don't do it. Do what is within YOUR comfort range with YOUR animals. Good luck to all.

Evan

Note: It was a certain kind of nematode, there are many different kinds.

Ah yes. Phylum Nematoda - the roundworms. Many nematodes infect humans, including Acaris lumbicoides, Trichinella spiralis (which causes trichinosis), hookworms, and pinworms. Some nematodes even infect plants! In fact hookworms are the most common parastie affecting humans. These are endemic in about 1/3 of the population of North America. The females crawl out of the human anus at night to lay their eggs and then crawl back in or die. This can cause an itchy feeling at the anus. I know more about Nematodes, Trematodes, Cestodes and Nematomorphs than I do frogs, I bet I could give your vet a run for his money.

I know that earthworms carry nematode eggs specifically, I just called these parasites (cuz they are) in my first post. I have cut the "genitals" out of many worms and viewed them under the microscope to look at the eggs. This is exactly what I was talking about when I said that you don't want these worms. First off, knowing that your pets are infested with internal worms is straight up nasty. Second, you run the risk of infecting youself (although if you don't think they are nasty in your pets, maybe you won't think they are nasty inside of you).

These nematodes have extremely complex lifecycles and require numerous hosts to complete their various lifecycles. An earthworm being one, and your pets being the other. This is known as an indirect lifecycle. Luckily, this means that after the eggs develop and mature in your pets, the "new" eggs which were made in your pets will exit in the feces and the adult womrs inside your pets will die, and you pet will be "clean" again. However, if you keep feeding them the same earthworms, the keep ingesting the eggs, and the eggs hatch and mature once again in your pet to finish their lifecycle. If you are ok with this, then thats fine, they probably do no harm to your pets. I am just saying that this is something I am very against, and I know alot of people in the pet trade are.

CanadainFrog,
Thanks for the info, very interesting. I knew that there were many types, and that some had more "life cycles" than others, but not the other "real world" info you gave me. Thanks for that, I unfortunately don't really have a problem with my animals having some internal worms etc. They have them in the wild, and as long as the harmful ones are not present, it doesn't bother me. I would hope that the basic rule of washing your hands after holding your animals/cleaning their enclosures would eliminate at least the majority of danger. Thanks again for your response, very informative. Keep it up.

Evan

Cool. I could go on for a few months with stuff I know about parasites. The only way to get infected is to consume their eggs, ie. by handling an infected pet and then licking your fingers or picking your nose and eating it or not washing your hands and then eating a cheeseburger. Their eggs are quite resistant to cold and drought. Now this isn't always the case. Necator americanus is very common and the main way to catch that is running outside in the grass with bare feet. They will actually bore into your foot and then enter your body that way.

CanadianFrog,
I will never walk barefoot in the grass again. Eeew! No really, thanks again.

Evan

HAHA, its not that common, but it surely does happen. What about when you go swimming in a pond or river or lake and you get "swimmers itch", that is the result of metacercaria boring into your skin. These usually bore into ducks feet, which is why it is also called duck itch.

CanadianFrog,
Ahhhh! Stop talking! Luckily I don't swim in lakes or ponds, I have a pool. A nice chemical laden pool, ah the simply pleasures.

Evan

I just learned about this one on Friday. Crap I forgot the genus and species name now. It is a nematode found in wild canids, like coyotes and foxes, and the eggs are expelled in the "dogs" feces. Well if you are out like searching for baby foxes or something (which I do regularly in the summer)and you inhale some dry feces that has eggs in it, then the eggs will hatch in your lungs and the roundworms will "eat" their way out of your lungs into your stomach and then into your intestine. The thing is, after they eat through your lungs your already dead! Talk about painful.

Excuse me, I have to go gag myself over the toilet, I'll be right back. OK, I'm back. That has got to be the worst thing since "Alien," I'd like to know why exactly the ecosystem of the earth needs such a creature? (No matter what you say, I will not agree. There simply NO reason for a creature like that.) It makes me want to live inside a big plastic bubble for the rest of my life. Thanks for that. And, I can probably live a happy life without the genus and related info, but I appreciate the thought.

Evan

P.S. EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE-
EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEE-
EEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEWW-
WWWWWWWWWW!!!!!!

Lol, Ok I won't talk about African eye worm then.

What you are referring to is form of larval migrans and while typically very uncomfortable, is very rarely fatal unless there are other complications.

Ed

snip "not, crickets should be the majority of the diet for a horned frog. I feed mine crickets, and mealwroms on occasion. Even more rarely I feed them earthworms, and even more rarely I feed them pinky mice."endsnip

Even though over 95% natural diet by volume of wild horned frogs consists of vertebrates including rodents, reptiles, birds and other frogs?

Typically the majority of the nematode load carried by earthworms are either harmless freeliving soil nematodes (ingested when the worm at the soil) or are specific parasites for earthworms and do not infect other animals. We routinely use earthworms all the time at work as a food source not only for amphibians but a number of mammals without issue. We screen at a minimum twice a year for parasites and heve parasite loads turn up in animals that are fed only crickets as often as they do when fed worms.
If the technician who is conducting the fecal check is unfamilar with the fact that the nematode eggs from the earthworm will pass through the frog (or other consuming animal) they will report a false positive for parasites.

Ed

And I wonder why they live only a few years in the wild. If you feed them only mice they only live for a few years in captivity too.

I really must disagree. All animals live the longest in the wild. (This excludes predation, which obviously shortens their lives in some cases.) In the wild their diet is varied considerably more than in captivity. We, as keepers, can offer them crickets, worms, mice and fish, and not even be close to the kind of variety they come across in the wild. So, sorry to disagree, but I really believe that things live at least as long in the wild as they do in captivity, provided proper care of course. I am also of the opinion that only those parasites that do not require an intermediate host are dangerous. Meaning that I don't consider those carried by earthworms a threat to my, or anyone's, collection. Good topic by the way.

Evan

Hi Evan,

Snip " really must disagree. All animals live the longest in the wild. (This excludes predation, which obviously shortens their lives in some cases.)"endsnip

It depends on what you are referring to.. In general, as husbandry techniques advance, longevity in captivity will outstrip that seen in the wild, however it can take awhile to get to that point.
What people often confuse is what is known as median longevity and maximal longevity. Median longevity is the average length of time you can expect 50% of that species to live which is variable due to many conditions (look at average human longevities based on country) while maximal longevity is the longest time a species has been known to live. It is possible that the median longevity may be greater for a species in the wild (which is doubtful for anurans due to the massive loss as tadpoles and metamorphs in the wild) but maximal is usually much longer in captivity.

Ed

That actually has nothing to do with it...

I have kept Ceratophrys for more than 10 years on a diet of rodents. Vertebrates are the normal prey for these frogs and this does include mice.

Ed

I see nothing wrong with a diet of rodents. I think it is one of those "taboo" topics among keepers and experts. And, as you said, it seems that our knowledge of these animals can only grow.
As for the "living longer in the wild comment," I was trying to make the point that their diets in the wild are varied, they don't feed strictly on any one thing, which, as it does for humans, leads to a longer healthier life. I realize that there are numerous factors that work against these, and all, animals in the wild and that certain ones, such as predation, can be wholly avoided in captivity. This factor alone obviously lends to a longer life, (I think it's common knowledge that not getting eaten is good for one's health. Be it a person or a frog). It would seem that, given an appropriate lifestyle in the wild, and again, no predation, and animal would live longer there than in captivity. (I guess I'm basing this on Dolphins. I seem to remember hearing that they live only a fraction of their possible lifespan when placed in captivity.) But I also think it is a valid argument to say that, given ideal conditions in captivity, that these frogs could well surpass their "natural" lifespan. (I suppose there is no real "right" answer to this question though.) I have often wondered about this in pertinence to trees, whether, given ideal conditions, if a tree could live forever. There you have it, again, good topic.

Regards, Evan

Hi Evan,

I am going to move to a different controversial species, elephants....

If you look at the average age of death in elephants in captivity over the last 100 years you get a age that is well below the average in the wild. Part of this is due to the fact that these records go back for more than a century in the USA and cover an extensive period of time before we began to get a good handle on thier dietary and other husbandry needs. Now if you take the median ages of elephants in captivity today you get a very different demographic picture.. (but then if you figure out the average age of death in people in the USA over the last 100 years, it would be significantly lower than it is today). If you start looking at average ages of death in captivity say since the 1970s you get a life span that is easily comparable to the reported longevities to elephants in the wild. (does this mean that this is where we stop trying to improve thier care, no.).

With respect to trees, there are average lifespans for trees after which they decline and eventually die...

Ed