Reptile & Amphibian Forums

This is an 06 yearling. He is about 280gr. Ever since I bought him he's has eaten like a pig (even during shedding). But now, it's been a month and has refused 2 meals.

When I bought him he was on fuzzies. He quickly moved up the chain and now he's on small rats. I usally knock-out the rat so it's still "kicking". Now, he seems interested and even "pushes" him and then ignores/avoids the rat. I've left the rat in the tank for hours but then I find him trying to get out, or hiding in a corner.

Nothing has changed, the temp is from 80-85dr. Could he sensing the change of season? What can I do?

Wrong diet. It should eat crickets. My guess is that is your problem.

snip "Wrong diet. It should eat crickets. My guess is that is your problem."endsnip

Based on what? This is not supported by the dietary analysis of the various food items as I have mentioned elsewhere on this forum.

Ed

O . K .

An 06 yearling weighs 230 grams? Wow, that's a little odd. I would think that a yearling would weigh more like 10-20 grams, (if that). I agree with CanadianFrog, vary the diet, add in some crickets, an occasional fish, and earthworms to make things a little more balanced for your frog. Really, 230 grams? I have three, 4 inch tortoises who don't weigh quite that. That's got to be a huge frog.

Evan

Erm, are you talking about a snake? I read "Ever since I bought him he's has eaten like a pig (even during shedding)." So the shedding part makes me think your talking about a python or something lol.

Anyway if its a frog....you must have an african bullfrog or a big female pacman for it to be able to eat small rats. And I lol at the above post saying it should only eat crickets...

Make sure the temps are around 80 F and that its moist enough, wait another week and try again. If he still doesn't eat, try another type of food, sometimes they get sick of one type of food. That usually works for my frog.

Diet has always been a big issue. And forever will be. Some PEOPLE don't think greasy hamburgers are very healthy, yet others eat nothing but greasy hamburgers. In the wild, the main part of a horned frogs diet is other frogs, then insects, then mice and anything else it can fit in its mouth. I have seen a small horned frog eat a horned frog that was twice as big as it was. Feed your horned frog crickets, it will live. Feed it mice, it will live. Feed it rats 5 times the size of it, it will live. Food is food. Vertebrates are much harder to digest than insects, thats for sure.

snip " In the wild, the main part of a horned frogs diet is other frogs, then insects, then mice"endsnip

This is not the order of prevelance in the wild of thier diet.

snip " Vertebrates are much harder to digest than insects, thats for sure."endsnip

this is not for sure.... and is not correct.

Please get your nutritional information correct.

Ed

Umm yes it is correct. If bones are easier to digest then chitin, then one plus one must be seventeen. And the main part of a horned frogs diet in the wild is indeed other frogs. Perhaps you should get your information correct.

snip "Umm yes it is correct. If bones are easier to digest then chitin, then one plus one must be seventeen."endsip

Well then one plus one is apparently seventeen as you again have the facts incorrect.

In the case of horned frogs, the bones are easier to digest as this is the primary source of calcium for the frogs) and they lack any significant levels of chitinase (otherwise you wouldn't be able to identify cricket parts in the fecals). Outside of a few insectivores and some birds that specifically are adapted to feed on arthropods the ability to digest chitin ranges from 0% to about 20%. As I have yet to see a horned frog pass a nearly complete or even partialy complete rodent or other vertebrate skeleton (but the do routinely pass large sections of chitin enough that you can identify the insects they were fed) This lends strong support that they digest the skeleton. This is also supported in the literature and that the skeleton is counted as part of the whole body analysis of rodents as feeders.

I would suggest refreshing yourself by starting with the Nutrition Chapter in Reptile Medicine and Surgery by Mader,
then trying the NAG advisory on feeding Insetivorous Animals, followed by Nutrient Composition of Selected Whole Invertebrates published in ZooBiology... This will give you a good start to possibly correcting the misinformation you are passing out.

snip "And the main part of a horned frogs diet in the wild is indeed other frogs. Perhaps you should get your information correct."endsnip

I believe I stated that in response to an earlier post on this forum where you stated that feeding them vertebrate prey is the wrong diet. So based on your posting you lifted that fact from my posts but what you still got wrong (and what I was commenting on) is the order of prevalence of prey in the wild that you listed. As I cited the actual literature documenting (in a separate post but I will list them below just in case you missed it) the diet of the frogs in the wild, I doubt that I have to correct my information....

Ed

the citations in question
Basso, N. G. and J. D. Williams. 1989. The diet of Ceratophrys ornata (Anura: Ceratophryidae) in Argentina. 1st World Congr. Herpetol. Canterbury.

and

Duellman, William E. and Miguel Lizana. 1994. Biology of a sit-and-wait predator, the leptodactylid frog Ceratophrys cornuta. Herpetologica. 50 (1):51-64

Your a goof. Straight up.

Proved wrong, and then you poke fun at him.....funny. Seems like you desperately want to be right, not everyone has the fortitude to admit they were wrong about something.

I haven't been proven wrong.

And chitinase isn't found in ANY animals. It is found in some bacteria and some plants!

snip "I haven't been proven wrong.

And chitinase isn't found in ANY animals. It is found in some bacteria and some plants!"endsnip

For one example in a vertebrate (a crab eating Bufo)
see http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=13789265 for the abstract of

OSHIMA Hiroyuki; MIYAZAKI Rieko; OHE Yoshihide; HAYASHI Hiroaki; KAWAMURA Kosuke; KIKUYAMA Sakae; Isolation and sequence of a novel amphibian pancreatic chitinase; 1994; Comparative biochemistry and physiology. Part B. Biochemistry & molecular biology (Comp. biochem. physiol., Part B, Biochem. mol. biol.)

As this is a pancreatic enzyme it rules out chitinase being the result of a symbiotic relationship.

For another see
Isolation and Characterization of a Chitinase from the Nine-Banded Armadillo, Dasypus novemcinctus
Stephanie A. Smith, Lynn W. Robbins, John G. Steiert
Journal of Mammalogy, Vol. 79, No. 2 (May, 1998), pp. 486-491
doi:10.2307/1382979

And many fungi contain chitinases and they are neither bacteria or plants.

Ed

Oh I am so sorry that I forgot about fungi.

You were trying to tell me that horned frogs use chitinase, which they definately do not! And you tried telling me that rodents make up the bulk of a horned frogs diet in the wild. Which is also not true!

From Canadianfrog's post
snip " You were trying to tell me that horned frogs use chitinase, which they definately do not! "endsnip

Did you even read what I wrote? That is not what I wrote (and is inconsistant with my position all along). I wrote and I'll cite it below that horned frogs do not have any significant levels of chitinase therefore chitin is harder for them to digest than bone.

My quote specifically snip In the case of horned frogs, the bones are easier to digest as this is the primary source of calcium for the frogs) and they lack any significant levels of chitinase (otherwise you wouldn't be able to identify cricket parts in the fecals"endsnip

Now from Canadianfrog's earlier posts (which you are now conviently ignoring your position) that insects are easier to digest as supposedly chitin is easier to digest than bone...

snip "f bones are easier to digest then chitin, then one plus one must be seventeen. And the main part of a horned frogs diet in the wild is indeed other frogs. Perhaps you should get your information correct."endsnip

And now to your (Candianfrog's) next incorrect statement
snip "And you tried telling me that rodents make up the bulk of a horned frogs diet in the wild. Which is also not true!"endsnip

Actually I did not. I have stated several times that vertebrates make up more than 90% of the diet of horned frogs that this was mainly frogs but also includes rodents and birds.

If you cannot even keep the facts straight between several posts it is hard to believe that you have anything of merit to offer in the way of help...

I am not conveniently ignoring anything. I didn't even read those because I simply do not care. What you are conveniently ignoring is how you use the word "chitinase" when talking about horned frogs. That is like using the word "cellulase" with humans. It is of no merit. But anyways, Im done in this thread too.

snip "I am not conveniently ignoring anything. I didn't even read those because I simply do not care."endsnip

This is again a contradiction in your position. You cared enough to respond to them with inaccurate statements and took arguments that were not only contradictory but incorrect which is weird if you didn't care enough to read them....

snip "What you are conveniently ignoring is how you use the word "chitinase" when talking about horned frogs."endsnip

Actually, no I am not. I have been consistant with my position on and use of chitinase (which is an enzyme that breaks down chitin).

snip " That is like using the word "cellulase" with humans. It is of no merit."endsnip

Actually it has merit as cellulose acts as a form of fiber and is part of a good diet for people.
However the comparision is incorrect as we were arguing over the ability of horned frogs to digest chitin not people being able to digest cellulose...

snip "But anyways, Im done in this thread too"endsnip

Sounds good to me...

Ed

How do you reconcile these two statements you made

snip "Vertebrates are much harder to digest than insects, thats for sure."endsnip

snip "If bones are easier to digest then chitin, then one plus one must be seventeen"endsnip

snip "And chitinase isn't found in ANY animals. It is found in some bacteria and some plants!"endsnip

First you say that the skeleton of vertebrates is harder to digest that chitin then you point out that only bacteria and plants (which is incorrect by the way see my other post titled "care to try again" which is saying that horned frogs don't have chitinase which means that they cannot digest chitin...
So how can vertebrates be harder to digest if the frog cannot digest chitin?

Ed

you have way too much time on your hands wow!

Herp nutrition is one of my interests so I try to keep up on the latest stuff in the field. (which is why I lectured on it at the last two International Amphibian Days)....

Plus I am a ZooKeeper that works in a Reptile House.

So it is less that I have too much time on my hand than I have a lot of the documented information (as opposed to anecdotal information) available...

Ed

do u work at the Philadelphia zoo?

Yes

Thanks Ed for taking the time to answer these posts, even if Underdog thinks you have too much of it...; )
I find your posts very informative, and I love the fact that you can back them up!
Plus, I have seen the undigested cricket parts in the fecals of Ornatas with my own eyes, so I knew you were right all along!

same here. We have a Pacman frog and he's eating crickets and he too would eat like a pig but now he has not eaten in two weeks. there are 4 crickets in the cage with him. The temperature hasn't changed. He lives in Pete moss, is that ok for him? Or should we try another approach?

Peat moss is quite acidic when compared to other more suitable substrates like coco fiber or sphagnum moss, making it a least desirable substrate. Peat moss generally also has small twigs in it which can lead to impaction (I for one have lost a horned frog to this).

Once they are adults it is not uncommon for Horned frogs to go off feed periodically particuarly if there is a change in photoperiod or temperature.

You can try several things to get it back on track,
1) increase photoperiod to about14 hours/day
2) rain the frog with warm water for a couple of days in a row (warning if it is a male this may get him calling....)
3) weigh and monitor the frog. As long as it doesn't lose more than 10% of its body weight, wait until it goes back on feed (becareful when weighing because you can get a false positive for weight loss if the is weighed with a full bladder and is later weighed after it voids its bladder when picked up).

Sometimes even just raising the humidity works.

Ed

well, I'm sad to say he died the other day. I agree with Canadianfrogg, it was the petemoss. We have a leopard gecko in the petemoss now, and we are going to remove him from it asap!!!

Sorry about your loss. I have been in your shoes before. Sometimes you just need to learn the hard way, lol. The good thing is that now you get to start over and use a more suitable substrate, and you should have far less problesm, hopefully no problems at all!

About the leopard gecko, they shouldn't be kept on a moist substrate.