Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Neutralization by Horned Lizard of formic acid through reaction with blood borne Calcium.

For some time those of us who have studied HL for a few years have heard numerous stories of a mystical substance contained in the blood of the HL, which is supposed to neutralize the formic acid from Pogo harvester ants. The story goes; that if the lizard does not receive harvester ants, or formic acid, this substance will build up and poison the lizard ( killing it ). For many years I have discounted this unsubstantiated mystery reference as hyperbole. Though I still believe it more or less to be hyperbole, I have recently reconsidered the basic tenets. Primarily the assumed "immunity" to harvester ant venom and any neutralization action.

An acid can be neutralized by a base of course. Calcium carbonate is a base salt and as we know is carried in the blood in a certain balance. Insufficinet calcium causes MBD as we know. When formic acid is neutralized by the base calcium carbonate, where water is present ( such as in the blood ), the product would be salt, CO2, and EXTRA water from the carbonic acid component of formic acid. This would also better explain the questions of excess salt excretions by the HL.

Calcium carbonate is much more soluble also when CO2 is present, making this reaction with formic acid very benificial to the HL's use of it in proper bone growth. The CO2 is then carried by the blood to the lungs and expelled.

I just find that fascinating. Anyone else?

Lester-I have a few biology related questions:

1. Is there any evidence to support a belief that the HL maintains a higher normal Ca. concentration in it's blood than any other lizard?

2. Reaction path-Is it a safe assumption that the HL "neutralizes/metabolizes" formic acid in it's blood by action with blood borne Ca.?

3. Is there any basis to support a belief that HL's have an advantage in proper growth and prevention of MBD when offered harvester ants ( per my post on P,Ca. solubility/digestability with formic acid)?

4. What effect does the excess ( beyond what is produced by normal respiration ) CO2 ( from formic acid metabolization ) have on oxygenation of the blood in the HL? Could this also explain their defensive/camouflage traits, as having something to do with a reduced availability of O2 in the blood for fleeing quickly, and great distances, compared to other lizards?
( I think it may be insignificant, but I'm reaching anyway.)

Has anyone even researched these avenues before?

Outside of improper captive care ( offering excessive Ca. supplements ), I don't believe there is any evidence that Calcium would build up ( hypercalcemia ) and cause a problem without formic acid. If the HL is able to keep up with the Ca. intake, it will simply pass excess Ca. the same as any other reptile. But, I am "discovering" new avenues and questions to research which is pointing toward Pogos having more significance than even I knew before. I'd appreciate input from someone with a strong biology background.
-----
"A man that should call everything by it's right name, would hardly pass the streets without being knocked down as a common enemy." The Complete Works of George Savile, First Marquess of Halifax 1912,246

Fireside, may I suggest you also look Wendy Hodges up on the internet and send her an e-mail with respect to this, as she may have some insigt as well. Your conclusion, whether based on a vaible theory or not-is where I go also, I don't discount anyones choices of food stuffs for their horned lizards, I just know that ever since I was a child in Camp Pendelton California I was raised around horned lizards and as I got older many times spent time obsevrving them on firebrakes eating large red ant, I new from an early age that ants made up a large portion of their scat. When I got older and got out of snakes and back into lizards, I caught a few males and females from Palmdale area and both me and my son worked together to breed these, and we staked out our ant piles in our city and often used a potatoe spoon to collect ants with. Yes I did occasionally feed them crickets and other faire from time to time, including moths, and spiders, we had an outside enclosure and kept these for 4 years back in the 70's which many lizard people were not doing and kept them very sucessfully, and this is also where we observed them eating various vegetations such as, green or red leaf lettuce, sweet alysum flowers, and rose pedals cut up real small. Also dandelion leaves. The adults just grab the leaves and tear off a piece and eat it. I used to feed my babies very finely chopped up vegetable material of the above mentioned and they would eat them as well. I have tried to get Lester or someon else to corroberate my observations but had yet to have anyone substantiate this, but this was a normal part of our offering to our horned lizards. Anyway interesting theroy, I think Wendy has done a lot of this tyoe of work as well and may have an insight. Just thought I'd share........
-----
Phrynosoma.org

______

signature file edited. [phw 11/14/04]

Thanks Repto, I had thought of her too, as well as Sherbrooke or others to address some of these things.

I have also considered trying plant matter ever since I saw the reference in Krotenechsen and read your post relating this before. I tried dandelions and some leafy greens once, but it wasn't of interest to the HL's and I put it on the back burner. I'll probably give it another try sometime though.
-----
"A man that should call everything by it's right name, would hardly pass the streets without being knocked down as a common enemy." The Complete Works of George Savile, First Marquess of Halifax 1912,246

Formic acid meyabolizes to water and a hydrocarbon. HL's are terrible at holding their water so ants are like a tiny drop of water running around the habitat.

Give them a moist place to sleep and keep them full of food and all is well.

I have had beginners raise them from hatchlings they find when camping in the desert.
-----
AMAZON REPTILE CENTER

NAMED BEST REPTILE STORE IN LOS ANGELES

On the contrary, HL's are excellent at water retention, as are most reptiles.

Formic acid metabolizes to CO2, salt, and water. But that wasn't the point of this post.
-----
"A man that should call everything by it's right name, would hardly pass the streets without being knocked down as a common enemy." The Complete Works of George Savile, First Marquess of Halifax 1912,246

>>On the contrary, HL's are excellent at water retention, as are
>> most reptiles.

My data indicates otherwise.

I have kept dozens of Phrynosomas over the last 25 years. If you keep them in a dry cage and offer water by spraying and water bowl they will lose weight beyond the weight of their feces.

This is why everyone now provides moist underground sleeping quarters in the form of damp sand or the like.

Phrynosomas are far worse at holding water than all other southwest desert species.

I did the same weight experiments with Sceleporus and Sauromalus and they lose weight far slower.

>>Formic acid metabolizes to CO2, salt, and water. But that
>> wasn't the point of this post.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Formic_acid

Formic Acid is HCO2H. Take a look at the form of the molecule at wikipedia.

A) there is no "salt" present in the chemistry to make "salt". No sodium or chlorides, no salt.

B) it does metabolize into H20 and CH the CH binds with other foodstuffs in ways I cannot explain.

A real chemist could explain why it does not break down into Co2 and H2. I believe it has to do with the pH.

Thanks for your post.
-----
AMAZON REPTILE CENTER

NAMED BEST REPTILE STORE IN LOS ANGELES

Interesting thoughts on water retention Amazon. This was my third summer in AZ and second with cornutum hatchlings. The thing I've learned this summer is that these hatchlings absolutely love water and will sit in it every night (I have a shallow bowl rock under the basking bulb). They are doing far better this year with the water than the group last year. I paid particular attention to the monsoon season this summer too. It was relatively wet and the HL's seemed to do well in it outside. When it's dry for long periods they disappear, which must mean they are burrowed somewhere. The interesting thing about this Sonoran desert, even though the surface may be very dry, there is usually significant moisture just below the surface in the summer.
Thanks for the post!
-----
Phrynosoma.Org
Phrynosoma.Com

>> The interesting thing about this Sonoran desert, even though the surface may be very dry, there is usually significant moisture just below the surface in the summer.
>>Thanks for the post!
>>-----
>> Phrynosoma.Org
>> Phrynosoma.Com

This is true throughout the range. Further evidence is the burying behaviour (seeking moist sleeping quarters) and the fact they are active early AM and late afternoons (avoiding the very hot drying sun throughout the range.

You are welcome!!!

FWIW this is not new knowledge. A friend and myself figgered this out 20 years ago! From research he started 40 years ago with asio's he collected himself.
-----
AMAZON REPTILE CENTER

NAMED BEST REPTILE STORE IN LOS ANGELES

Cable/Amazon,

I tried a little experiment when hibernating my DHL's and Solares this year. I moistened about 1/3 of the sand in their aquarium and left the other 2/3's dry. 4/5 of my animals have burrowed into the moistened area, only to have been seen sporatically since, looking well hydrated and quite healthy. The only animal that didn't is my Solare runt, which never burries itself.

Not sure what this all means, but it is interesting just the same. Will have to compare pre/post hibernation weights to get a good feel for whether the technique is successful or not.

Thanks,
Roger

Amazon-I have used a water bowl and spraying, and have found both do fine. I am pretty sure that many of our Hl's get a lot of their mositure by the food they eat, but I would also say that when you state that if you use a water bowl they will lose their wieght and more or less die, I wonder if there would or could be other factors involved in your observations? Could there be some other husbandry issue? While many do use damp soil, and I agree one hundred percent that in Texas the ground does hold moisture even when it looks dry, JUsr dig in a dry stream bed; howwever after going through the drought we did this year, I only saw one THL in south Texas and I am in the field doing another study. As Cable intimated below it seems they do estaevate and become dorment. This seems to be the case this year. So I do think whether you spray or use a bowl (by the way which works for some and not for others) many have mistaked thier need for hydration.....
-----
Phrynosoma.org

______

signature file edited. [phw 11/14/04]

>>Amazon-I have used a water bowl and spraying, and have found both do fine. I am pretty sure that many of our Hl's get a lot of their mositure by the food they eat, but I would also say that when you state that if you use a water bowl they will lose their wieght and more or less die, I wonder if there would or could be other factors involved in your observations? Could there be some other husbandry issue? While many do use damp soil, and I agree one hundred percent that in Texas the ground does hold moisture even when it looks dry, JUsr dig in a dry stream bed; howwever after going through the drought we did this year, I only saw one THL in south Texas and I am in the field doing another study. As Cable intimated below it seems they do estaevate and become dorment. This seems to be the case this year. So I do think whether you spray or use a bowl (by the way which works for some and not for others) many have mistaked thier need for hydration.....

The very fact the animals were largely absent during a drought is significant evidence that they were AVOIDING the dryest portion of the habitat, ON THE SURFACE, and instead choosing to stay underground where the moisture is.

One does not have to dig in a streambed to find moisture. Dig ANYWHERE and 12 inches down it is moist!
-----
AMAZON REPTILE CENTER

NAMED BEST REPTILE STORE IN LOS ANGELES

>>My data indicates otherwise.

I would be interested to see data if you have it in a documented format.

>>If you keep them in a dry cage and offer water by spraying >>and water bowl they will lose weight beyond the weight of >>their feces.

This is contrary to my experience. There are many other reasons why a HL may lose weight, thus if you have "data" from studying different groups of HL's subjected to different hydration protocol and habitat, it would be important to go into more detail ( as well as what species you are talking about ). My solare and cornutum have always been kept in low humidity/arid conditions ( same as their natural desert or semi-desert habitats ), and given water by misting, dropper, or very occasional soak. No humidity retaining substrates. They do not lose weight except during hibernation, as expected. They have healthy fat reserves. A solare I recently received underweight is putting on 1-2gm a week on Pogo's and hydration every few days by the methods above. She is weighed every morning after bowel movement and before feeding. At her current rate she will be safe to hibernate for a short period before the end of winter.

>>This is why everyone now provides moist underground sleeping >>quarters in the form of damp sand or the like.

Who is "everyone"?

>>Phrynosomas are far worse at holding water than all other >>southwest desert species.

All other species? Or of all other species of reptile? That's a very sweeping statement and I doubt that you or anyone else for that matter has conducted such study on every species of reptile in the southwest desert. But I'm open to seeing the data on what you have. A gopher tortoise could be better for example, but that's a very relative observation. I will maintain that the HL as a diurnal desert dwelling species is "efficient" with it's water retention nonetheless until shown scientific data to prove otherwise. It may be less efficient than some other reptiles, but that wasn't my point.

>>http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Formic_acid
>>Formic Acid is HCO2H. Take a look at the form of the molecule >>at wikipedia.

Thank you, but you will have to forgive me if I do not consider "wikipedia" the best source for your information. Not that it's wrong, but I have studied it elsewhere from more scientifically credible sources.

>>A) there is no "salt" present in the chemistry to >>make "salt". No sodium or chlorides, no salt.

Sodium and Chlorine are not the only cations and anions that can make a salt compound. You are accounting only for the structure of formic acid, and not what it reacts with during metabolization.

www.ilpi.com/msds/ref/carboxylicacid.html
"When a carboxylic acid is neutralized with a base it becomes a salt that is itself a weak base."

www.inchem.org/documents/jecfa/jecmono/v38aje03.htm
"Biochemical aspects"

"Formate is an intermediate in normal metabolism. It takes part in the metabolism of one-carbon compounds and its carbon may appear in methyl groups undergoing transmethylation. It is eventually oxidized to carbon dioxide.1"

www.rsc.org/publishing/journals/CP/article.asp?
doi=B510112C
"Heterogeneous uptake and reactivity of formic acid on calcium carbonate particles:"
"...enhanced uptake kinetics and extent of reaction of this organic acid on CaCO3 as well as opens up several new reaction pathways. These reaction pathways include: (i) the water-assisted dissociation of carbonic acid to CO2 and H2O..."

>>B) it does metabolize into H20 and CH the CH binds with other >>foodstuffs in ways I cannot explain.

Rather than "hydrocarbon", I think you should mean "carbohydrate".

>>A real chemist could explain why it does not break down into >>Co2 and H2. I believe it has to do with the pH.

It does break down into CO2 according to my sources, but that's why I asked particularly for someone with a biology background, like Lester to respond to that. Besides, all this is far removed from the subject matter of my post...which was about the calcium factor in the blood acting on formic acid. If you wish to debate further what formic acid does or does not yield and why, or the benefits of humidity in the substrate please take it up in another thread where appropriate.

>>Thanks for your post.

Thanks for yours.
-----
"A man that should call everything by it's right name, would hardly pass the streets without being knocked down as a common enemy." The Complete Works of George Savile, First Marquess of Halifax 1912,246

>>>>If you keep them in a dry cage and offer water by spraying >>and water bowl they will lose weight beyond the weight of >>their feces.
>>
>>This is contrary to my experience. There are many other reasons why a HL may lose weight,

Such as?? My 25 years of lizard keeping experience tells me that a healthy, feeding animal loses weight ONLY from dehydration.

My solare and cornutum have always been kept in low humidity/arid conditions ( same as their natural desert or semi-desert habitats ), and given water by misting, dropper, or very occasional soak. No humidity retaining substrates.

Likely you get away with this because they have learned to drink water and eat plenty of food. Not because they are drought tolerant. Same data, different conclusion.

>> They do not lose weight except during hibernation, as expected.

This is a sign they are dehydrating and is certainly NOT expected amongst animals I have raised. They lose NO weight at any time except during dehydration events and is always reversed when the substrate is moistened.

This knowledge is utilized for other subterranean lizards such as Coleonyx and Eublepharis. If they sleep in the same places, why not Phrynosomas??

>> They have healthy fat reserves. A solare I recently received underweight is putting on 1-2gm a week on Pogo's and hydration every few days by the methods above.

So you agree hydration is important and ants are a significant source of water. Great!

>> She is weighed every morning after bowel movement and before feeding. At her current rate she will be safe to hibernate for a short period before the end of winter.

Terrific. Good on you for taking such good care of her.

>>
>>>>This is why everyone now provides moist underground sleeping >>quarters in the form of damp sand or the like.
>>
>>Who is "everyone"?

Everyone I talk to and have read posts of. AND those I advise in my store. Beginners raise babies to adults in 18 months using my moist substrate protocol.

>>>>Phrynosomas are far worse at holding water than all other >>southwest desert species.
>>
>>All other species? Or of all other species of reptile?

Sorry. I was not clear. All other diurnal desert lizards. I have kept all of California's diurnal desert genera and almost all species (except P mcalli and G silus) and once you have a few dozen of each it becomes clear who needs the most water.

>>That's a very sweeping statement and I doubt that you or anyone else for that matter has conducted such study on every species of reptile in the southwest desert.

See above. My studies were husbandry based. I did utilize laboratory equipment as I worked as a chem lab tech at the time. Thus I had excellent weight data.

>>But I'm open to seeing the data on what you have.

Unfortunately, it was lost in a fire. Unfortunate girlfriend incident. She was a wacko! My bad on that.

>>A gopher tortoise could be better for example, but that's a very relative observation. I will maintain that the HL as a diurnal desert dwelling species is "efficient" with it's water retention nonetheless until shown scientific data to prove otherwise.

OK, no sweat! But science only gleans "basic" data when it comes to husbandry. So far, keeping animals alive is not important to "scientists" so we must use what they teach us, combine it with what the animals teach us and make our own hypothesis. Just as you have done and I have done. From what I see here, I suspect we have similar data and are interpreting it differently. That is the source of further discussion and experimentation. I am happy to have read yours and hope you are of mine.

Desert Tortoises are very good at holding water (they sleep in humid chambers), but dehydrate easily in dry enclosures. They dig a moist burrow for access to the humidity, especially babies. If you'd like to discuss tortoises and humidity I can do that at great length privately.

>> It may be less efficient than some other reptiles, but that wasn't my point.

It was my point that you challenged me on.

Thanks!
-----
AMAZON REPTILE CENTER

NAMED BEST REPTILE STORE IN LOS ANGELES