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She laid her second clutch and I got a short video of it.

http://s7.photobucket.com/albums/y286/1bonnie/?action=view¤t=jrlaying004.flv

Hope this works.
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BONNIE

That didn't work. How did I do this last time?
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BONNIE

Good news!
Is junior an armata?

Lately I discovered gravid females do best when kept at 85-90f until they nest, if allowed NTL in the 70s they simply retain eggs until favourable temps arrive.

They seem to judge nesting by ambient temps, other species will simply dig deep until the right temps and humidity. But these guys just go at it when ambient conditions triggers them to nest, no test digging and the eggs are superficially covered.

Seems like inland species prefer moss and leaf litter, while costal will nest in non organic material ( sand, silt, sawdust)

Of course I will know more when I get a few more clutches.
rgds

Jobi, you are saying the armata nest only at 85-90°F? Is this why I have lost 2 of my 4 gravid armata? They retained the eggs and perished. Even oxytocin didn't get them to labor.

I have 2 females left, one with her second clutch and one with her first, that should be getting close to due date. I am keeping the nesting viv at 85 daytime but it does drop into the 70's at night. If these temps are the problem I need to know as I only have 3 females left, these gravid two and one small juvenile.

I know Bonnie is concerned with her female who seems to be retaining her clutch as well. From the photos she sent she isn't in danger like the two I lost, not think and wasted looking yet, still nice and plump with fat limbs, but no sense letting her go to the point of wasting away if it can be avoided by raising the night-time temps!
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Marcia - FroggieB Dragons
www.froggieb.com/MHDHome.html

Several months ago some of my females seem way past due time, obviously retaining.
Usually females do this because they don’t recognise nesting options, however sins my other acanthosaura species nested well in moss, I assumed there must be an other problem. At the time I kept 1.3 in one cage and an other 1.1 in an other cage, the female of the 1.1 pair did not appear gravid but both females in the 1.3 cage look exactly like yours (very big with eggs) I discovered there needs by accident, I was attempting to trigger copulation with the 1.1 cage by leaving the light on 24/7, this resulted in the female nesting before both other females, she appeared only half the size. When I saw this, I simply left the light in my other cage on 24/7 and both females nested simultaneously after 3 days.

The only problems with higher heat is keeping the cage hydrated and feeding, drinking more often. The problem with light being on 24/7 is coloration, other then this lizards aren’t affected in anyway.

I am now playing with different nesting mediums, I have picture of wild armata nesting in sandy loam, this female looks similar to yours.

Therefore I now provide moss in half my cage and sand-dirt mix other side, will see how it works soon. The mix is regular 60% play sand and 40% top soil, this have proven to work well with many species.

I see no reason why this shouldn’t work with your captives, in any case you will see how they progress or regress before anything turns ugly.

Ps. Males should not be kept with gravid female, these lizards stress out easily, they need calm safe retreats, my nesting cages have small doors and opaque walls reducing the stress of them seeing me.

Just read about your misfortun on the other site!
This really saddens me a lot, I don’t understand why none of you emailed me?
The point of sharing on these forums is to avoid such husbandry problems.

I too lost many animals but it was an accident, other then this my lizards do well and nest properly, I haven’t lost any from parasite or egg bond or any other husbandry faults, my eggs are beating records and the babies are strong.

If I was failing with my captives id understand why you guys rejected my tips, but it’s far from being the case.

jobi,
Is it OK to keep the males at the higher temps discussed? I just got two females, won't be breeding them soon, but I am keeping them at about 85-88F with 75-80% humidity. Does this sound OK to you? Also, what is the actual difference in the way you keep your armatas verses say capra or lipidogaster. I'm just curious what the actual temp differences should be. Hopefully you get this, I am really curious now that I have 1.2 armatas, I don't want anything to happen to any of them. Thanks a bunch if you get this!

Regards, Evan

Actually I am still learning about acanthosaura nesting.

My first few nesting where not optimal, I feel the temps where to low, if a lizard nest at 72f in the wild doesn’t mean it’s the preferred temp for this specie? My captives have nested much better at higher temps, I can tell by how long they hold there eggs.

I just took this photo for you 10 minutes ago, this female is nesting her 3rd clutch as we speech, notice how small she looks! When she nested her first clutch she was twice this size, why? Because she retained her eggs, retained eggs keeps growing and so those the fat bodies if she’s well fed. She’s held on to her eggs because the temps where off, now that I provide higher temps she and other acanthosaura’s nest in the 30 day range (after copulation) and it barely shows, this reduces an enormous stress on the body.

As iv said many times I keep all my lizards the same way, the only difference with armata is stress related. I haven’t kept them at lower temps, therefore I have not experienced the problems Bonnie and Marcia are having.

My only concern with armata is fine tuning my nesting medium, I want them to nest faster then 50 days, I think my temps and hydration is good, I know my medium can be better.

One thing I can guaranty you, when my book is out the information will be dead on.
But now I am only experimenting.

jobi,
Thanks for the info, greatly appreciated. I am keeping the male warmer,85-90F, or so right now. This is fairly new, he hasn't been like this for long. I'm hoping he'll start acting better. The females are a bit drab, perhaps a bit dehydrated. But, of all the lizards I have, the big female armata is my favorite. (Don't tell the ohters though.) She has the best personality out of all of them. Very nice and active. I love her. I'm a bit worried about the smaller one, though I'm sure she'll pull through. Hey, when you publish your book, I want an autographed copy. Deal? (You don't haver to send me one unless you want to, but I would like oneThanks again for the help, I'm sure you'll hear more about my armatas in future. Thanks!

Evan

I did raise the temp in her cage a few days ago. She (the armata) laid 1 egg in her waterbowl. It candles yellow (almost neon yellow). No pink or red at all. I still am incubating it till it colapses. I don't leave the light on 24/7 but I do have a low watt ceramic heater half way down the cage to keep the substrate warm for her. I am also misting like a mad woman because of it. I do hope this helps.
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BONNIE

Bonnie obviously you missed my point about dehydration.

Ceramic heat emitters do one thing well, kill reptiles.
In your cage the walls may be covered with condensation because your spraying, your bottom can be wet as a swamp, but the ambient air dry as hell. This space in mid air is where our lizards live, we cant see how dry this air is, and if you never took accurate measurements you will never know, and consequently lose lizards.

Now I am telling you what you need to know, no ifs or buts, just strait forward facts of herpetoculture.

Low wattage ceramic heats as much as your oven, theirs no reptiles in the world who can benefit from such a device, doesn’t matter how you use it, its useless.

I posted about why I use 25w bulbs, I explained why I prefer using a few 25w then a single 60w, its about heat dispersion and avoiding hot spots, hot spots dehydrate the atmosphere, it takes away the ambient air humidity, when you think your lizards are in a well hydrated cage, they are actually breathing dry desert air and slowly suffering chronic dehydration, they struggle between drinking to replenish and losing body fluids.

Years ago I was explaining this to varanids keepers, they called me saying they where losing baby monitors, when ask how was there set-ups? Same as your Steeve, I followed your advise to the letter, hold on I am coming! When I get there the first thing I noticed was those darn 60w bulbs, why are you using 60w bulbs? Well this room is a little on the cool side, so I need to compensate. It doesn’t work that way, if your room is low, raise the rooms temps not your cages wattage, its your animals that pays the price.

Photos showing a low wattage ceramic and a 25w bulb, don’t assume your temps are right, make sure they are.

jobi,
you said something to the effect of, "even with a moist ground and appropriate temps, the air cans till be bone dry", forgive me if that's not exactly what you said. My question is this, do the readings on a digital humidity gauge mean anything then? If the %humidity is say at 60, is that literally what it is? Does that mean that that is the correct %? I hope this isn't too confusing, I'm not quite sure how to word it. Basically, if the humidity gauge says things are good, are they? Thanks.

Evan

Gages aren’t always accurate, that’s why I pay a lot of $ for pro gages, you can find excellent hydrometers in speciality stores, I took mine at a farmer supply, it’s a long needle probe type use to take reading in hey balls. I paid $240 but you can get some cheaper in plant shops.

6in under a 25w bulb with reflector the temps is about 130f, this in a close top cage that retains moisture, at this spot the humidity is about 20% and increases as you move away from the heat source. Even desert loving species can’t stay at 20% very long. Therefore when basking my lizards are wasting hydration very fast, this is why they will prefer an area in the mid 80s of higher saturation, basically it’s not the higher temps they avoid its dehydration.
dont rely on one gage only, and check the batteries often.

jobi,
I noticed on your pics that the digital temp gauge you used looked like the type that can measure surface temps. I have a friend who has this, this is how I am familiar with them. I was wondering, does it take the surface temps of the glass of the bulbs, and of the ceramic of the ceramic heater? I don't think any of my 25w bulbs ever get to above 90F, and even that might be pushing it. You might be using higher quality bulbs than me though. I was just wondering, because I too have had bad luck with the ceramic heaters, my large snake touched one about 5 months before I got him, it left a burn that took another 4 to heal. Very, very hot on the surface.
The humidity problem is an interesting one, as Christmas is around the corner, I might ask for one of the devices you mentioned. If it's not too much trouble, could I get a pic of one? I have actually had problems with the batteries running out in my digital thermometers. Just read my post on the Repticzone forum that says, "Bad, Bad, Bad". That was really unnerving. Anyway, thanks so much for the tips, I greatly appreciate them!

Evan.

>>Just read about your misfortun on the other site!
>>This really saddens me a lot, I don’t understand why none of you emailed me?

Jobi,

would have emailed but you were having your knee fixed! I just read your reply to my question and I too had many nesting options. Varied moistures, many different mediums as you are well aware. These did not do the trick. I still think that the females overall weight and vigor to start with is of great importance in the final outcome. Much like some geckos if the female has a good fat reserve she is going to be in better condition to deal with the whole egg production process.

I feel that the two females that I lost were marginal at best when they conceived and by the time they should have laid the eggs conditions were not right and it was just too much. Had the temps, humidity, and medium all been perfect then perhaps they would have made it and laid their eggs but something was not correct and they missed.

The larger female was also not finding conditions to be perfect but due to her nice fat reserves she was able to survive and eventually she did lay her eggs and went on to develop a second clutch.

I must point out that I did open both of the females that I lost and both had egg folicles developing for a second clutch. However, had they laid the eggs they were carrying they were already so thin I am not sure they would ever have survived the second clutch. It would have been hard to imagine them eating enough to bulk up that much in the short time it takes for the second clutch to develop.

I feel that my females, and certainly my male, were lost by accident. I was doing everything that I knew to do. I had set up what you had told me to do. I had the oak leaves, the moss, the heat lamp, and had put them in the nesting viv I had talked about setting up. It is the greenhouse that is 8' long 2' wide and 28" tall at the peak. I have construction paper taped on the glass to give them privacey with only narrow strips at the peak for me to peek in. I open the top to mist and change the water and add worms and other feeders.

The male especially was doing very well. I have been using the forumla you suggested, the heat lamp, the humidity, the substrates. He was shedding on a monthly basis which to me seems a great growth rate. I don't know what went wrong with him. It seems he just crashed overnight! He was a very small male, maybe 5" snout to vent. The female that died egg bound wasn't much larger than him. I wouldn't have bred her by choice but didn't think that this group was old enough to breed. That's why I had them separated out from the other group. The surviving female is probably 4" snout to vent. I just hope she makes it.

Now that you are back I am asking questions in hopes of avoiding problems with the two females that I have that are still gravid. I don't want to lose them and their eggs.
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Marcia - FroggieB Dragons
www.froggieb.com/MHDHome.html

Your females follicles size, her fat bodies size, her egg size when put together they tell you what happened and how to avoid it next time. If you send me a photo or description, I can help.

Your male, his stomach, intestines and liver says how he was performing.

We don’t recognise it, but young inexperienced males are bullied by gravid females, its not necessarily physical, my females stress out males simply with body language, this causes the males to feed less and soon perish in the high energy cages we use, this is why I separate and place males in cages NTL 72-75f DTH 78-80f with basking.

Gravid females are never allowed lower then 80f at any time, 84f is my preferred lowest temp.

Lately iv observed one of my more aggressive female bulling an other female in the same manner she did with the male, this could lead to nesting problems.

Also I now believe that males can be introduced to females once every spring, and females will multiclutch fertile eggs throughout the year, if properly supported.
The advantage of this equals in less stress on females and faster cycling.

This blue female laying her 3rd clutch has been mated once only, lets see how these eggs are?, I bet they will be fertile and so will her next clutch.

I am discovering so many new things about these lizards it’s captivating.

Ps. This is only my opinion and surly no advise to anyone, however I am expressing it so that you guys can ponder about it and draw your own opinions (will not discus it farther).

Making the rare morphs visually available before they are established can only kill your future marketing, we all know how difficult it is to sale our baby capra’s for any decent money, I feel this is not only because of cheep imports, but because of poor marketing.
Think about this, I sold a few nice colours capra like at $150ea and the last armata's at $250ea some of my up coming will fetch higher price.

Now before you make any judgement on me, remember that peoples cherish expensive pets and neglect cheep imports, its been this way for the 27 years iv been in the pet trade.
I can give you many example about this, ball pythons use to be the cheapest imported boides, it still is cheep, but breeders have turned them into $20,000 morphs, are these morphs any different then imports? Apart from being selectively bred for colors and captive produced it’s the same snake. The same can be applied to leopard geckos, letchianus, chameleons and many reptiles, why not those amazing dragons we keep? These extraordinary lizards that 90% herper’s have never seen.

Mark my words! This forum one day will be the hottest forum on king snake, I know why but till then I am keeping my cards.

I don't mean to interrupt this new thread of ideas, but I just wanted to share my new female armatas with this board. They arrived this morning. The bigger one is drab in coloration, as is the smaller one. I have hopes that, when they shed, they will be quite beautiful. Especially the smaller one. She is showing colors of yellow and faint orange on her head and legs. We'll see. Maybe, if they breed, this will be one of the expensive, beautiful morphs?
jobi, I am really happy that you are back. I'm happy that there is someone with your experience and success here to answer questions. With you and Marcia, the skies are the limit!

Here they are, the big female is bigger in person than she appears in the pic.

Thank you Steve. I will remove the heater at once and replace with the 25 watt bulb. I had a bulb like that in there but it didn't seem to bring the temp up enough. I did realize that the heat was drying the air hence the misting. I'm printing your answer to keep on file.
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BONNIE

"We don’t recognise it, but young inexperienced males are bullied by gravid females, its not necessarily physical, my females stress out males simply with body language, this causes the males to feed less and soon perish in the high energy cages we use, this is why I separate and place males in cages NTL 72-75f DTH 78-80f with basking."

This would be a good explanation of what caused the crash of my young male except for the fact that I removed the gravid female as soon as I realized that she was gravid. He was still eating and shedding after that time. It must have been a full month after I removed her that he crashed. Of course I do realize that these guys don't show problems until it is too late, so this really is pretty much a moot point! I would say that my temps in this cage do fall into this range.

"Also I now believe that males can be introduced to females once every spring, and females will multiclutch fertile eggs throughout the year, if properly supported. The advantage of this equals in less stress on females and faster cycling.

This blue female laying her 3rd clutch has been mated once only, lets see how these eggs are?, I bet they will be fertile and so will her next clutch."

I'm betting on it too. I have said this for 8 years + now. I have tested this and found it to be true. My coronata variants have not laid multiple clutches but my capra-like and armata have. I don't believe they need to copulate to produce fertile eggs either. I felt that my females were being over-worked with so many eggs so after my first year of breeding these animals I decided to separate the males from the females after mating. What I found was that they still laid up to 4 clutches and that they were all still fertile. In fact, I had one female that laid a clutch a full 9 months after being removed from the male and those were also fertile! So, mating one time a year is sufficient to get all of the eggs needed for a season with most of these animals.

I keep my coronata male and female together all year round and yet I only get one clutch and last year the eggs were laid around Christmas and this year it looks like it will be about the same time again.

I am sure I could manipulate the mating season by keeping the sexes separated because I did have a male that I kept alone. When I introduced a female he was on her like flies on, well you know the saying! As it is I keep them together and it seems that they mate in June through September with eggs laid October - February. As I stated, I always separate the sexes after breeding has occurred.

I agree with you on the price/value thing. It’s the same with dogs and cats. If you have plain old housecats or mutt dogs and give them away for free people tend to neglect them because they are trash/disposable animals. However if you charge $25-50 each for the same animals their new owners will take them in for shots, give them nice names, pretty collars and beds, and make them a member of the family! Really sad but it seems to be psychological. Free or cheap = little worth. High priced deserves good care.

Anyway, I appreciate you sharing your insight on the armata. I sure seem to be struggling with them yet. If you are not then anything you can share will be taken as valuable resource and has been to date! You were just absent when I lost my two females!

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Marcia - FroggieB Dragons
www.froggieb.com/MHDHome.html

Marcia from what your are saying
(He was shedding on a monthly basis which to me seems a great growth rate.) this male was running in high gear, in fact iv never seen one of mine performing this fast.

With any reptile species at the first sing of trouble, my first reaction (if I don’t know the problem) is to slow them down. Lower temps automatically slows there metabolism, they can then save energy until I find the culprit, other reasons to slow them down are injuries.

My guess and it’s only a guess? Is your male succumbed to a combination of stress and high metabolism, this can be determined by internal organ visualisation, the digestive system and body interior will look empty and dry, with no signs of fat whatsoever, in most cases the liver will be dark rather then red-pinkish. If so this is a case of dehydration.

When I am face with such a case, I force feed liquids and food until the lizards regain full body function and feeds with appetite, if I don’t do this in most cases the lizard will keep slowly perishing.