Reptile & Amphibian Forums

ok, i am asking for some feedback from all of the asian rat experts. I am going to try to do some work next summer on some of the korean species and want to use this winter to try to soak up as much info from anyone and everyone so i can go into this thing with as much knowledge as possible.

Having said that, i will tell you where I am at. The only source that I have had available to me is Baek and Sim 1999. I do not know if there is a translated version available and if so if anyone has it. In 2004 I did some work with Dr. Sim on a series we did for korean reptiles. During my time with Dr Sim we discussed the korean ratsnake. At that time he said that they were E. schrenki and were known to exist in three "phases". Black and white, brown patterned and yellow. He was unaware of E. anomala.

It is my understanding, correct me if I am wrong, that E. anomala was originally described as and considered a subspecies of schrenki and possibly sometime in the early 2000's it was elevated to its own species.

I did not readily find a pic of schrenki but i do not have any questions about it. The only thing I would like to do is to get some photos of some of them for comparision of colors/pattern to northern localities.

I would like to know about anomala. I have enclosed some pics of both "varieties" for your interpretation. Any info would be helpful. All of the anomala pics i have seen are of the patterned variety and i am wondering if the patternless variety has even been described. If so is it considered a subspecies of anomala or simply a variant / locality?

I also am adding pics to the thread of a schrenki that i found on an island off of the western coast. I had hoped to return to this island to try to determine if this coloration was recurring on this island. One possibility that I considered is that there may be a population of this form that has evolved the hyper melanism as a result of the lower temps/winds that occur on the island as a means to more rapidly raise their body temps. Of course this will require my return to the island which I hope to do this year. I did visit a neighboring island this past summer and in 2 days I was able to locate 5 baby schrenki, all with normal neonate coloring/markings. I was unable to locate any adult specimens.

I guess my last item that i would like to discuss is the albino korean rats that i have seen for sale in the US. Does anyone know the history of where these originated from and wether they are actually schrenki or anomala I have never seen them listed with their latin handle, only as korean rats). I have only seen pics of babies. I also know that because even a normal colored schrenki sells on the black market here (for medicinal purposes) for more than they are getting for albino babies, that chance of them actually being of korean origin are unlikely. Any insight would be appreciated.

The first 2 pics are of an anomala and the 3rd pic is of an anomala with the hyper melanistic schrenki from the island.

here are the pics of the "hyper melanistic" schrenki. I had posted a few field pics of on the forum a year or 2 ago. As you can see it still has the typical markings on the chin and neck but lacks all of the white bandings.

Here is the "yellow Phase" anomala. Has anyone seen this form before?

Don:
You are correct about the recent elevation of anomala to species level. Utiger had an article in the Russian Journal of Herpetology (RJH) a few years ago that analyzed mtDNA from almost all the ratsnakes (old and new world). He decided based on this evidence that schrencki and anomala were separate (but obviously very closely related) species. Schulz mentions schrencki that look entirely black on the anterior (top) surface but does not discuss melanistic anomala. Schulz shows anomala ranging through the Korean peninsula but only one locale in North Korea for schrencki. I've seen anomala that resembled your first photo of anomala but I've never seen one like that second anomala.

I'll bet you're right about the island climate having something to do with the melanistic appearance. I also wonder if that snake would qualify as schrencki or anomala. If it is schrencki it probably will qualify as a range extension for the species. Very cool find!

I don't know any of the details of the albinos.

Best regards
John

John, if i understand you correctly, you are saying that schrenki range is only known as far south as North korea? If this is the recognized range, that I can say with certainty it is not accurate. Schrenki is found in south korea. Its complete range is uncertain to me at this time but i can easily find at least the general range from a snake collector that I know. I used some of his snakes during the making of the series and he had several schrenki that were collected in the south. I am sure he can shed some light on their range here.

As far as the melanistic form, if i recall correctly, the belly is just as black. I am thinking it is schrenki and not anomala but i have no real basis for this line of thinking. I suppose unless there is a difference in scale count that the only way to confirm it would be the same manner that was used to elevate it to a species, mtDNA.

I plan on doing scale counts this summer to ensure there is in fact no difference.

Only time will tell as to what I can or cannot discover in relation to the various species, ranges, etc. through some field work but I figured it is a good time to try to absorb as much info as possible now while i wait for the snow to clear.

Any links to literature pertaining to any of the s. korean species would be greatly appreciated. Thanks for the info,

Don

To clarify, the range maps in Schulz show anomala only in South Korea. They show mostly anomala in North Korea with one locale for schrencki there. In adjacent China there are ranges for both subspecies (or species depending on your view) with the schrencki dying out as you go south and leaving only anomala. If there are non-anomala "schrencki" in South Korea then I believe this differs from Schulz.

>>John, if i understand you correctly, you are saying that schrenki range is only known as far south as North korea? If this is the recognized range, that I can say with certainty it is not accurate. Schrenki is found in south korea. Its complete range is uncertain to me at this time but i can easily find at least the general range from a snake collector that I know. I used some of his snakes during the making of the series and he had several schrenki that were collected in the south. I am sure he can shed some light on their range here.
>>
>>As far as the melanistic form, if i recall correctly, the belly is just as black. I am thinking it is schrenki and not anomala but i have no real basis for this line of thinking. I suppose unless there is a difference in scale count that the only way to confirm it would be the same manner that was used to elevate it to a species, mtDNA.
>>
>>I plan on doing scale counts this summer to ensure there is in fact no difference.
>>
>>Only time will tell as to what I can or cannot discover in relation to the various species, ranges, etc. through some field work but I figured it is a good time to try to absorb as much info as possible now while i wait for the snow to clear.
>>
>>Any links to literature pertaining to any of the s. korean species would be greatly appreciated. Thanks for the info,
>>
>>Don

John, Thanks. I am am wondering where I could view this range map from Schulz? Is there any resource on line that you know of. My sources for any printed material is very limited over here.

thanks, Don

>>here are the pics of the "hyper melanistic" schrenki. I had posted a few field pics of on the forum a year or 2 ago. As you can see it still has the typical markings on the chin and neck but lacks all of the white bandings.
>>

Where did you say this form was from? If this is the island form, which is in the Yellow Sea, I would have to say it is anomala. Like John said, E. s. schrencki does not range into South Korea according to any info that we have seen, including Schulz' book ('96). It looks like schrencki, but should be just a melanistic form of anomala according to the range. If it is not, then that would be a major find and you should record that somehow, if only to post it here. It could lead to some major discussion.

It looks like anomala is extrememly variable according to your discussion. I would think the "yellow" form you posted a pic of is a variant of anomala. Once again because of the range. It looks like it is just an aberrant form. Maybe the pattern starts to break up in certain localities. Other ratsnakes, such as E. quadrivirgata, are known to be extremely varaible in the Far East, including melanistic and island forms, etc. There is a form of Euprepiophis conspicillata on Tsusima (Japanese island close to ROK) that is a variant with an unusual pattern. There is a lot that could be learned in ROK. I think good field work has been really lacking from that country.

Cheers....Terry

on the forum in a long while. Korea and Taiwan are chiming in with brand new stuff at the same exact time. Very very nice.

Regards
John

>>>>here are the pics of the "hyper melanistic" schrenki. I had posted a few field pics of on the forum a year or 2 ago. As you can see it still has the typical markings on the chin and neck but lacks all of the white bandings.
>>>>
>>
>>
>>Where did you say this form was from? If this is the island form, which is in the Yellow Sea, I would have to say it is anomala. Like John said, E. s. schrencki does not range into South Korea according to any info that we have seen, including Schulz' book ('96). It looks like schrencki, but should be just a melanistic form of anomala according to the range. If it is not, then that would be a major find and you should record that somehow, if only to post it here. It could lead to some major discussion.
>>
>>It looks like anomala is extrememly variable according to your discussion. I would think the "yellow" form you posted a pic of is a variant of anomala. Once again because of the range. It looks like it is just an aberrant form. Maybe the pattern starts to break up in certain localities. Other ratsnakes, such as E. quadrivirgata, are known to be extremely varaible in the Far East, including melanistic and island forms, etc. There is a form of Euprepiophis conspicillata on Tsusima (Japanese island close to ROK) that is a variant with an unusual pattern. There is a lot that could be learned in ROK. I think good field work has been really lacking from that country.
>>
>>Cheers....Terry
>>

>>on the forum in a long while. Korea and Taiwan are chiming in with brand new stuff at the same exact time. Very very nice.
>>
>>Regards
>>John

John, I agree. There's so much work to be done in the Far East. Looking at some of the variation in ratsnakes there gives us some idea of the potential. Here's a hypo dione morph that was posted a year or so ago...

I've also seen amelanistics, melanistics, and others in a multitude of species. I just wish some of these would make it into the U. S. sooner than later.

Have a nice weekend....Terry

>>>>on the forum in a long while. Korea and Taiwan are chiming in with brand new stuff at the same exact time. Very very nice.
>>>>
>>>>Regards
>>>>John
>>
>>
>>John, I agree. There's so much work to be done in the Far East. Looking at some of the variation in ratsnakes there gives us some idea of the potential. Here's a hypo dione morph that was posted a year or so ago...
>>
>>I've also seen amelanistics, melanistics, and others in a multitude of species. I just wish some of these would make it into the U. S. sooner than later.
>>
>>Have a nice weekend....Terry
>>
>>

Terry, I absolutely love that hypo. You mentioned it was posted a year ago but I am wondering if you are talking about YOU. Is that beauty yours? I would love to see how it played out in F1 or F2.

I already have access to indo species such as Gonyosoma but would love to get into some of the other species from places like Taiwan and such. I also want to try to do work with Korean species and if I work it right, hope to try to get approval to export some also. The money is not really worth the effort (of trying to get permission to do so) but I wouldn't want to do it for the money anyway. Just like to see some species with exact locality make it to the people who can do something constructive and mantain the integrity of what they are. Time will tell.

Thanks for the great pic.

Don

>>Terry, I absolutely love that hypo. You mentioned it was posted a year ago but I am wondering if you are talking about YOU. Is that beauty yours? I would love to see how it played out in F1 or F2.
>>

I tried to get that snake, but the price was too high for my budget at the time. I believe it was in the U. S. about a year, or two, ago, but I'm not sure what ever happened to it. I think it originally came from a dealer in Hong Kong and I couldn't get it then either, because I'm not set up for importing and would need help with that. Maybe after I move to AZ in two yrs. I'll have the time and airport access.

>>I already have access to indo species such as Gonyosoma but would love to get into some of the other species from places like Taiwan and such. I also want to try to do work with Korean species and if I work it right, hope to try to get approval to export some also. The money is not really worth the effort (of trying to get permission to do so) but I wouldn't want to do it for the money anyway. Just like to see some species with exact locality make it to the people who can do something constructive and mantain the integrity of what they are. Time will tell.
>>
>>Thanks for the great pic.
>>
>>Don

Don, you're welcome on the pic. I just hope the folks I borrowed it from don't mind.

I hope you are able to make some contacts with the right people to be able to secure some of these cool snakes. Some areas of Asia have not been collected much at all and there are some savy herpers in the U. S. and Europe that likely would love to work with some locality animals. We rarely ever see anyone from Taiwan, Korea, Japan, etc, post here on this forum. There are many ratsnakes and other types of snakes in these places with distinct species or subspecies. Taiwan has it's own subspecies of mandarina, taeniura, porphyracea, and carinata, for instance. Island localities are great and the Far East has a tons of unique islands.

I hope you can get into some new ratsnake species. Maybe more folks will get interested in collecting for the hobby in the Orient in the future, instead of just collecting for the food markets. Maybe it will take some Westerners who have enough interest, resources, and charisma to do it. Then it will also take some folks like you to keep them and export them, and some on this end to be the importers. Who knows. It's fun to talk about the possibilities anyway.

Take care....TC

Now let's hope that some of these Mandarin ratsnakes from Taiwan make it into U.S. and European collections!

Bert

I hope the New Year finds you happy and healthy and all your friends and family likewise.
Best regards
John

>>Now let's hope that some of these Mandarin ratsnakes from Taiwan make it into U.S. and European collections!
>>
>>Bert

A merry Christmas and a happy New Year to you too! Hopefully the new year will bring nothing but good for you and your family and friends. And let's not forget your snakes ofcourse; I hope that they too will have a fantastic new year.

Kind regards,

Bert

>>It is my understanding, correct me if I am wrong, that E. anomala was originally described as and considered a subspecies of schrenki and possibly sometime in the early 2000's it was elevated to its own species.
>>

Hi, Don. It's been some time since I've worked with the Schrenck's ratsnakes, but I'll try to fill in the best I can.

I don't remember, off hand, who elevated anomala to full species, but I've always looked at that as "potentially" a full species. I've not accepted it, yet, myself, and still think of schrencki and anomala as one species, and the two subspecies in it. I think we can use them either way because the proposal still has to stand the test of time.

>>I would like to know about anomala. I have enclosed some pics of both "varieties" for your interpretation. Any info would be helpful. All of the anomala pics i have seen are of the patterned variety and i am wondering if the patternless variety has even been described. If so is it considered a subspecies of anomala or simply a variant / locality?
>>

I'm not sure. By "patternless", do you mean the melanistic form, or any unicolored form? I remember the melanistic snakes you posted a couple years ago. I wouldn't think of it as a subspecies. No island subspecies have been described, as far as I know. A melanistic phase, or any color phase, such as brown or yellow, would just be a color variant in most cases, and could be confined to just one locality, such as one of the islands.

>>I also am adding pics to the thread of a schrenki that i found on an island off of the western coast. I had hoped to return to this island to try to determine if this coloration was recurring on this island. One possibility that I considered is that there may be a population of this form that has evolved the hyper melanism as a result of the lower temps/winds that occur on the island as a means to more rapidly raise their body temps. Of course this will require my return to the island which I hope to do this year. I did visit a neighboring island this past summer and in 2 days I was able to locate 5 baby schrenki, all with normal neonate coloring/markings. I was unable to locate any adult specimens.
>>

I like studying island populations. There's always a chance snakes could have been isolated for a long time and have some genetic variation. It would be interesting to note whether all the anomala on your island are the melanistic form or just a percentage. It could be the babies look normal and change to the melanistic phase as adults. You could also check to see if they average a different size from mainland populations, or if there are any other differences which might even lead you to describe a new subspecies.

>>I guess my last item that i would like to discuss is the albino korean rats that i have seen for sale in the US. Does anyone know the history of where these originated from and wether they are actually schrenki or anomala I have never seen them listed with their latin handle, only as korean rats). I have only seen pics of babies. I also know that because even a normal colored schrenki sells on the black market here (for medicinal purposes) for more than they are getting for albino babies, that chance of them actually being of korean origin are unlikely. Any insight would be appreciated.
>>

Several breeders have had the albino Koreans, so they're being bred here. I don't think they are very common, however. I know Thomas Harrison posted some pictures a year or two ago. I believe the albinos are of the anomala subspecies, although I'm not totally positive on that. I remember discussing the term "Korean ratsnake", because they don't just occur in Korea, and other names might be more suitable. Not much came of that because so few of these were sold or discussed.

Thanks for the pics, Don. Interesting stuff, and hope to hear more from your next year and your adventures with these snakes.

Terry

Terry, Thanks for your input. The "yellow patternless" i spoke of is in my 3rd post (3 pics) on the thread. Looks a lot like E.o. quadrivittata. It is as different to the others as schrenki is to anomala (pertaining to color/pattern). It is just as common as anomala (so i am told) but i am not certain of the ranges of either and wether their ranges overlap. This is all information that i need to try to gather and i have several sources but i suspect that much of it will have to be done with field work. As far as ranges go I can probably get a lot of data by simply taking some pictures of each species / color variation and jumping in the car and driving the peninsula, stopping at old timer farms and asking which ones they are familiar with seeing in that area.

You know, it is rather ironic because i travel all over and always hoped to find a new species in my travels. Considering the few number of species here compared to the locations i travel too, there is still a lot of information lacking and even if i never find a yet undescribed species, there is still plenty of work that i can do right here. And i even get to sleep in my own bed.

Anyway, the island i visited 2 years ago is much more distant and remote than the one i visited last year. We had to coordinate a korean navy boat to take use there and was actually going there last year but the navy boat that was laid on did not have a transfer boat and so there was no way to get us to shore so we opted for a closer island that we could get close to for a transfer. Hopefully this coming year. We will have to see.

Thanks again for the info. I will post any new findings to the forum.

Don

>>Terry, Thanks for your input. The "yellow patternless" i spoke of is in my 3rd post (3 pics) on the thread. Looks a lot like E.o. quadrivittata. It is as different to the others as schrenki is to anomala (pertaining to color/pattern). It is just as common as anomala (so i am told) but i am not certain of the ranges of either and wether their ranges overlap. This is all information that i need to try to gather and i have several sources but i suspect that much of it will have to be done with field work. As far as ranges go I can probably get a lot of data by simply taking some pictures of each species / color variation and jumping in the car and driving the peninsula, stopping at old timer farms and asking which ones they are familiar with seeing in that area.
>>

Don, I happened to see a couple anomala from China posted in the photo section of Schulz' book ('96). One is mostly gray and one mostly yellowish and they are mostly w/o pattern, except in the posterior. I think the unicolor pattern of anomala might be fairly common and in a number of different locations. I also saw a brown form of E. s. schrencki from Russia.

>>You know, it is rather ironic because i travel all over and always hoped to find a new species in my travels. Considering the few number of species here compared to the locations i travel too, there is still a lot of information lacking and even if i never find a yet undescribed species, there is still plenty of work that i can do right here. And i even get to sleep in my own bed.
>>
>>Anyway, the island i visited 2 years ago is much more distant and remote than the one i visited last year. We had to coordinate a korean navy boat to take use there and was actually going there last year but the navy boat that was laid on did not have a transfer boat and so there was no way to get us to shore so we opted for a closer island that we could get close to for a transfer. Hopefully this coming year. We will have to see.
>>
>>Thanks again for the info. I will post any new findings to the forum.

>>Don

I look forward to any new findings you make. I think the Korean Peninsula is a great place to do studies and possibly make new discoveries. I might even make a trip there myself someday.

That far away island you found the hyper melanistic schrencki on sounds very intriguing. I have thought of a possible scenario and how that could be schrencki and not anomala. Suppose that during the ice ages the cold drove schrencki farther south and onto this island, anomala being even further south. After the ice age is over and the warmth comes back, anomala returns north to it's former range, but the schrencki on this remote island gets stranded and can't return north. Because this island is windy and colder than the mainland, schrencki is able to survive this far south. It could be a relict population. Anyway, just something to be hopeful about.

I will try to put a link to a Russian website that has many dione variations you can check out. Let's see if this works...
www.edione.narod.ru/
It also has some links to other sites.

TC

TC, thanks for the info and the link. I took a look at the link. Very nice, just takes a while for the pics to load.

If you ever do make it over here, let me know. I would be glad to help you any way I can. If I can get something hooked up for the island this summer i will try to give you (and anyone else on this forum with the same interest) a heads up in case you wanted to join in on the fun.

Your hypothesis is something to consider concerning the island population. If you look at the pic of the side of the head you can see the light colored pattern still remains on the neck and throat. For this reason I remain optomistic that it is a color that has evolved in the entire population rather than just an isolated genetic mutation. Of course we will not know until we make that trip. We originally located the island through some college students who visited the island to go rock climbing but turned back before the days end because they saw so many snakes. We have since then referred to it as snake island. The day I visited it however, I located the snake within 5 minutes of landing on the island. Our time there was very limited (a few hours in the heat of the day)and we spent most of it taping that snake. When i go back there i want to spend at least 2 or 3 days if not more. The problem is that it is very difficult to get to as it is fairly remote but this is also a good thing i guess because not only is it not populated, but it recieves very few visitors.

Thanks again for the info,

Don

Hi, Don. Hope everyone had a great Christmas.

The thing about the island is very interesting. It reminds me of a situation we have here with the Western fox snake, Pantherophis vulpina vulpina. We don't get them on our hobby farm in the northern Lower Peninsula (of Michigan), but they do range into the western portion of the Upper Peninsula, and can be found along parts of northern Lake Michigan. I haven't found any on islands, yet, but I have been working a little on a peninsula about two hrs. from home and have seen a number of specimens, most of them DOR's...

Here's a shot of someone's few acres on the peninsula. Fox snakes like the open areas and can survive where there is much disturbance from farming...

In this way they could be a lot like anomala.

The distribution of the fox snakes is very interesting, since the Westen fox can only be found around parts of Lake Michigan, but then near Lakes Huron and Erie the Eastern fox snake, P. v. gloydi pops up. To explain this one must consider the last Ice Age. According to my readings the ice was still retreating from northern Lake Michigan around 10,000 yrs. ago. So, in my eyes, the fox snakes are still expanding their ranges north, as the conditions become suitable for them. The Western fox hasn't expanded into the Lower Peninsula, from the west, yet.

We can draw some comparisons bt. the fox snakes and the Schrenck's ratsnakes, although with Elaphe schrencki the ranges are more north and south, rather than west and east, as in P. vulpina. For one thing, E. s. schrencki and E. s. anomala are probably still expanding their ranges north, and there could possibly be relict populations left in the south. That's one of the reasons your island population needs to be sampled. Another reason is to look at natural history, to see how they are living, and what they need in order to survive. E. s. schrencki is a cool adapted snake, and I'm not sure the conditions would be right for them on your "Snake Island". However, there could be specieal conditions there.

Anomala is located on both sides of Korea Bay and the Yellow Sea, and on the Liaodong Peninsula, as well as the Shandong Peninsula in China. They are adapted to the lowlands and warmer climate there, whereas, schrencki is in a cooler, more northerly, climate, and may be a little more montane also. There's a good chance anomala could be on at least some of the islands in the Korea Bay, etc.

Is there another name for Snake Island? I've been looking at a map of the area and would like to pin it down more, if possible. I've also been looking at Cheju Island (Quelpart) in the south. I know Elaphe dione can be found there and wonder if anomala is there? Funny, it's a subtropical island, and yet, it still has habitat and climate suitable for dione. That's probably because of the extinct volcano there and high elevations. I borrowed this pic from a site called, lifeinkorea.com, I believe...

Maybe you have contacts with the university, or Mr. Sims, you could ask?

Don, I appreciate your offer, if I could come to South Korea. I know I can't do that this year, because our summer is already planned and I have too many obligations. That kind of a trip might work better once we have retired to Arizona, so it will be at least two more years, if I can make it. I sure wouldn't be able to do it on my own, since Korean culture is so different, and I'm sure I'd need help getting around and making proper contacts. I'd love to be able to spend some time there and sample the habitats, however. As I told my wife, it's not the same unless you've been there and used all your senses to get an overall impression. Hope you have a lot of fun exploring next summer and keep us posted. I'll surely follow along with your reports and photos.

Stay in touch. Terry.