Reptile & Amphibian Forums

First, I would like to take all of you who responded to my posts.

I have spoken to my student's mother and got more details on Prickle.

She told me that the student's father bought the DHL @ a reptile store here in FL. She has mainly been taking care of it and not the child. Prickle came with a DHL book and a 10 gallon tank.

They had him for about 2 months with the temperatures "at around 90 degrees". She mentioned they had fed him crickets and wax worms in that alotted time and that he was doing very well.

After that, they moved him into the students room and about a week later he was not eating. She told me he would dig under the sand everytime they took him out. When they placed the crickets he would ignore them and dig again.

They were leaving the lights on for 16 hours a day. (Is this right?) The little guy was still not eating. He has been like that for 3 weeks and since I've had him when the lights are he seems to be active alot but as soon as I introduce food he runs around the tank and finds a spot to dig. Either that or he does not even attempt to catch the crickets.

The student's mogther agreed to let me keep him and try to find out how I could help Prickle. I don't know how long I'll have him but she seems open to letting me keep him until we can figure out what to do with him.

Now that you know a little more history, perhaps you can recommend something. I was thinking about hybernating him as soon as I can b/c It seems that's what the little fellow wants to do.

Thanks so much!

I would like to thank...not take. hehe!

If the littel guy was eating before and then when he was changed he quit eating it could could have been the temps, and wehter you hibernate or keep him up, let me impress upon you two things. A ten gallon cage is sort of o.k., but if your going to keep him long term I would recommend a 20 gal. long at a minimum, obviosly cages cost.

Next if you read the discussion between fireside and I the point is that the animal absolutely needs to have a UVB bulb for long term health. THese lizards can go down the tube without proper lighting whenever you either keep him down or bring him up. So you may want to ask more questions or let us know what you have in the way of lighting.

I think the rest or a lot of the stuff you can glean from the web-site, but please if you have questions we are here and want to make sure the little buggar has a happy life style.

With HL's the husbandry can be critical to overall health and wealfare, many other lizards are forgiving to a point, but these guys you need to have your ducks in a row for sucess.....Cheers!!!
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Phrynosoma.org

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signature file edited. [phw 11/14/04]

He has a Sun Glo 75 watt tight beam basking spot light with UVA and a ESU 7% UVB light.

I cannot get a 20 gallon tank but is there something else I can substitute it with? Maybe a plasting bin? I could probably make a top for it that would be alot like the top he has now.

I really want to help. I already care for thins animal and it has only been with me a few days.

I'm going to need all the help and advice I can use! Is there any way to get this little guy back to it's natural habitat? I think he would be much happier.

Thanks again!

I am going to try and raise the temp just a little. I'll also start taking him out for real UV rays to see if that helps any.

I read somewhere that if they are stressed they become anorexic and die.

First I want to say that you are doing the right thing by staying in touch. This is the sort of thing that takes time when you are not versed in setting them up. I never recommend horned lizards for beginners due to their mortality rates, but at least you have a species that is easier in captivity.

If this is indeed a store bought DHL, we still don't know whether it was captive bred or wild caught. In all probability chances are that this species was wild. But you cannot release it with good chances of success for it's survival without knowing more specifically where it came from. Many reptiles have a tendency to make a home where they grew up and stay there in that area. When they are released far from there, they are confused and may wander into trouble. More importantly, it is winter, and should not be released in the cold right now in unfamiliar territory. I am always all for release of a wild horned lizard when it can be done, but in this situation this does not sound viable at this point. If you feel at some point you do need to pass it on to a good home, then we could provide recommendations for experienced keepers.

It sounds that he is ready to hibernate since he stopped eating before the move. The move might also have stressed him a little and he needs some time to settle down and adjust. In light of the recent information about him I am going to say that you should keep him up for about a week for observation, then he could hibernate. Let him get some sun, water, see if he will eat small crikets, keep his lights on for about 10 hours ( not 16 ), get a thermometer for his tank ( small common mercury garden/outdoor variety can be found at Walmart for about $1. ), and watch for defecation everyday and note when you see it. It will be important for making sure his system is clean before he hibernates. If he does not eat in the next couple of days then I say don't worry about it because he will need to go down too soon anyway. Ideally, he needs to be given about 2-3 days without defecation to be sure he is clear. Just make sure he drinks as much as he wants. The little white crystals you will find is urates ( solid urine ) and is normal.

If you take him out for sun make sure the it's not in a high walled container that traps heat or blocks the sun. He should be allowed some access to direct unobstructed sunlight, along with some shade to retreat to as needed. 30min-1 hour would be good this time of year. Don't keep him in the aquarium either. I don't recommend a plastic bin usually, especially to take out in the sun. Though it is winter and there is less chance of it, a plastic bin retains heat and can overheat him quickly too. You could use one in a pinch now, but just remember to not make it a habit, especially when the weather gets warm again, or you could kill him.

Since I'm going to get on board with a recommendation to hibernate, you don't need to worry so much about the tank size right now. He will be sleeping. More important is finding a place to put him that can stay cold but above freezing. 40-50s ideally.

Another question we forgot to ask....he is in sand right?
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"A man that should call everything by it's right name, would hardly pass the streets without being knocked down as a common enemy." The Complete Works of George Savile, First Marquess of Halifax 1912,246

Couldn't find any comments on your hydration technique. How are you providing water?

He is in desert sand. I have a small bowl with water and I also try to spritz him and I've been placing him in warm water to see if he would eat.

Is this right?

Thanks again for trying to help! I really want to help this guy out.

Right now he is in his hide box and he's sanding with his belly off the ground.

I have not seen him poop at all since I got him.

Your hydration technique is good.

If he has eaten since you took custody of him, and he has not defecated. Stop feeding him or trying to feed him. Having food intake and no waste indicates a possible life threatening problem. If that is the case, only give him filtered room temp water, and warm soaks. Also let us know if that is the case!

If he has not eaten and there has been no defecation; then that's normal.

If he is getting enough water, then occasionally you will find the whitish/yellow urate crystals. He will expel excess water he is storing along with any excess minerals or toxins. It might not happen regularly if he is not eating or defecating regularly. Just ensure that you do see him actually drinking by smacking his mouth.

As to his standing high on all fours above the sand...this sometimes happens when there are too many insects around with them, and making them nervous. Sometimes they do it to better grab their prey. But sometimes they do this when it is too hot for them, and they are trying to get off the sand.

Ensure that it is not too hot by keeping a thermometer in contact with the sand. If gets over 110 you could kill him.
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"A man that should call everything by it's right name, would hardly pass the streets without being knocked down as a common enemy." The Complete Works of George Savile, First Marquess of Halifax 1912,246

For it to slow down on eating at this time of year is expected. If it doesn't disappear under the sand for long periods of time, then you need to keep it well hydrated, provide food daily like you are doing and give it enough heat to keep the metabolism up enough to digest. Becareful not to overwhelm it with too many prey items. Provide just a few pinhead crickets or ants(10 )two or three times a day. You can figure out what the optimum count is by slowly increasing the number until some are left after a 15 minute eating period.

Your hydration technique sound very close to what I do, which seems to work just fine for me. I don't place a water bowl in the cage, to many detrimental issues related with that technique. Instead, I use a separate disposable GLAD container for hydration. I start by placing no more then 1/4 inch of warm tap water in the bottom. I then place the animal in the container and the spritz it with more warm tap water until it is pretty much soaked. They tend to jump around at first but then settle down within a few seconds. Within a minute or two they start smacking their lips. What they are doing here is sucking the water from the corner of their mouths that has wicked up from the hands. Very interesting to watch. About 10 mintues of this technique 1 to 3 times a week should do just fine. Be sure to let them completely dry-out and re-heat in the aquarium before putting them to bed for the night. You don't want them going cold while they are wet.

Like you, right now I have two of my group that are refusing to hibernate while the others have been burried deep for weeks. These two are behaving like it's late summer, that is they are less active and eating less then they do in the spring and early summer. They don't appear to have any issues with weight and pretty much drink every time I hydrate them so although I'm concerned, I'm not too worried. Just the same, I still watch them pretty closely and if they start to look like they are loosing any weight then I up the frequency of hydration, which seems to re-activate their apetites.

Good luck,
Roger

I have decided to observe him a little more before I make the choice of hybernating him. This is what I've seen.

Since I raised the temperature of the tank just a little he seems to be more active. He digs under gound but usually not deep. His head still sticks out from the sand.

He'll run around the tank somtime wiggling his tail. That's when I place some food in the tank. He pretty much ignores it and after a while just digs in the ground again.

He definatly drinks when I spritz him and place him in warm water.

The crickets I place in there are pinheads and I alternate between them and wax worms to see if reacts to any of them differently.

Another thing I've noticed is that there is sand in his eyes and it seems like one of his eyes is coated with something that is not letting him see. Could it be he can't see the food? I see him pushing his eyes out and I figure thats their natural way of expelling stuff from their eyes.

Thanks again guys!

Could you be specific? Has he eaten anything since you took custody of him?

He's excited by the prey but something is wrong. He is probably looking for ants instead, or the crickets are too fast for him. Try pinching their back legs so they cannot get away as easily.

I recommend staying away from any kind of "worm" at this point. Lack of experience, the fact that this is a juvenile, and the balance of opinion being that he should probably hibernate soon; dictate feeding of larvae is not the best course. It is not the most healthy food for them, takes to much effort to digest, and slows down their metabolism.
Crickets are bad enough, since these lizards normally eat a high number of ants, but at least can be gotten in a very small size.
Besides, this horned lizard is a little young, and wax worms tend to be a little large for a small horned lizard. The wrong size prey can also cause an impaction and kill him. Though it less likely with waxworms, this is one of the many reasons why you should not experiment too much intially without consultation. Many new people kill horned lizards quickly by doing the wrong thing.

The "coating" you see on his eyes is probably the nictitating membrane which protects the eye. His eyes may be irritated or scratched from debris, and there may still be debris in his eye, and he's keeping the membrane over the eye because it hurts. They do raise the blood pressure in their cranium to bulge their eyes out to remove debris, sometimes by squirting blood. Try rinsing the eye with sterile saline that contains no other chemicals. There is a trick to catching them with their eyes open and getting the eye rinsed. They tend to close their eyes upon trying to rinse, so it takes some patience and timing.

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"A man that should call everything by it's right name, would hardly pass the streets without being knocked down as a common enemy." The Complete Works of George Savile, First Marquess of Halifax 1912,246

I have had him for one week and he has not eaten.

I ordered ants from antsalive.com but I'm not sure when they'll get here. Crickets are my only option since wax worms are out of the question.

Unless these are very young and small wax worms that are no more than two or three times as big as a pinhead cricket. Most are sold much larger though, and unsuitable for very young horned lizards. If you have any calcium supplement dust, you might try lightly dusting a cricket, as sometimes they tend to respond to this. Fruitflies, moths, termites, or most other species of ant will do in a pinch right now too.

There are so many issues to be aware of that it is hard sometimes to remember everything to tell someone. One of those important issues I forgot to mention is that horned lizards tend to dislike being hovered over too closely, especially during mealtime. If they are not comfortable with you, they usually won't eat anything. Especially true since this one has been moved into a new environment. Reptiles often do not take to being moved that well. They are very instinctual when it comes to predation and survival, and they feel insecure for a while after being moved.

It has been roughly 3 weeks though without food, and if he does not eat within a couple more days the process of putting him into hibernation should be begun. While he is up under lights and sun without taking in calories he is burning a lot of stored calories that he will need for hibernation. Unless he either eats, or goes into hibernation soon, problems will develop.

Antsalive could take you another week or two this time of year. This lizard will need to be in hibernation before that unless he starts to eat some crickets in the next couple of days. This is one of the biggest considerations in keeping a horned lizard awake during winter. That's why they hibernate in the wild too. It's difficult to nearly impossible to keep them feed over winter, unless you are feeding them a lot of the wrong things.

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"A man that should call everything by it's right name, would hardly pass the streets without being knocked down as a common enemy." The Complete Works of George Savile, First Marquess of Halifax 1912,246

He finally did it! He has not eaten though. Does this mean that he's getting ready for hybernation officially?

I'm not sure what to think of this. Insight please!

More specific please so that I understand you. Is this a defecation with fecal matter AND urates, or just urates?
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"A man that should call everything by it's right name, would hardly pass the streets without being knocked down as a common enemy." The Complete Works of George Savile, First Marquess of Halifax 1912,246

It's fecal matter and crystal urates. They are together.

If I can chime in again, I'd recommend you hibernate him. Getting a fussy hatchling to eat when it appears he's ready to go down can be bad in the long run. You can keep him up and try to get him to eat, only to watch as he slowly loses his fat stores. Then you have a real issue.
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www.phrynosoma.com

Perhaps at some point you missed a few crickets and left them in the tank, and he ate them. It's also not unheard of for a HL that hasn't eaten in a while to pass scat ( defecate ) from waste material that was still in the system.

It is a sign that the digestive tract is being cleared and he's getting enough water to not only clear out what might be old digestive waste, but to release nitrates and other waste products in the urates.
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"A man that should call everything by it's right name, would hardly pass the streets without being knocked down as a common enemy." The Complete Works of George Savile, First Marquess of Halifax 1912,246

RK, what is so detrimental about a water dish?

I personally don't use them much with adults because they don't use them much. But juveniles tend to enjoy them, and seem to need them the most. One can certainly get along without using a water dish with a HL...but why would it be a "detriment" in any way to use one?
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"A man that should call everything by it's right name, would hardly pass the streets without being knocked down as a common enemy." The Complete Works of George Savile, First Marquess of Halifax 1912,246

Have you found a quiet, dry, dark, secure, and cold place to use to hibernate the lizard?
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"A man that should call everything by it's right name, would hardly pass the streets without being knocked down as a common enemy." The Complete Works of George Savile, First Marquess of Halifax 1912,246