Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Thanks guys for your response to my ant problem. Yes I realize I should have ordered earlier, and is no time to be asking for ants with this blizzard. I will try paypal, although I am not sure I trust it. My guys are not gonna hibernate, they are too skinny for sure, any recommendations to fatten them up? I appreciate it!!!!!PLEASE REPLY. Thanks guys.

Small crickets and ants. Stay away from those meal worms. They'll kill you DHL's most likely.
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www.phrynosoma.org

Like me and Mark mentioned, the next best food ( other honeypot ants or some other suitable ant ) would be crickets.
I say pinheads because when you're dealing with a Horned Lizard that's not getting enough food and may be underweight, overloading it's system with more food or "heavier" food puts a strain on it physically.
A sick or underweight reptile needs to be gently coaxed back into health slowly. You're not trying to fatten up a Thanksgiving turkey. The more demand you place on the lizard physically, by making it deal with larger and excessive food, the more you will actually lower it's metabolism and other functions such as immune response.
For an adult of healthy weight and activity, the medium-small crickets are ok to supplement ants and other small prey.
But in general, many small items are better than a few, or one, big one. Especially with a sick or underweight Horned Lizard, the smallest is always better.
Mark may not have realized this, but I kinda assumed yours were probably going to be underweight given your statements, and your urgency.
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"A man that should call everything by it's right name, would hardly pass the streets without being knocked down as a common enemy." The Complete Works of George Savile, First Marquess of Halifax 1912,246

Thin or not, I've found that the next size or two (if not too large) above prove to be just as good as pinheads and will stretch your dollar a lot further, especially if ants are on the way. I have hatchling cornutum from 2 to 5 grams body weight and they can all handle a size or two above pinheads without issue, although I remove the crickets jumping legs sometimes for the smallest of them. These are still somewhat soft bodied and easy to digest.

One of the key points in HL care is to be sure you are prepared for the next few weeks of feeding whenever possible. This isn't always possible, but once they get down to an unsafe weight it's like trying to catch a greased pig. You'll be doing all kinds of gyrations and back flips trying to get them back to a healthy state. The best medicine is to always keep them healthy with a little fat reserves.

Another point to consider about HLs: Not all HLs are created equally. Some will make it through while others in the same cage will succumb to poor conditions or unfavorable situations. My observations on this seem to point to their stress tolerance level. Some are skittish from the get-go while others seem to take it all in stride. If you get an overly skittish animal you are going to have troubles in abundance. This is why captive born animals are the best. The wild ones have had to struggle with all kinds of threats throughout their lives, while captives have had it relatively easy and are just not strung as tight.

There are many factors that come into play with HLs and one really has to be observant and accommodate as much as possible the particular needs of the animal you have. They are not so much like gold fish that you can just admire as you walk by. Dedicated observation can go a long way in noticing problems early. One should spend enough time observing to be able to immediately identify when behavior changes. Changes do not always indicate a problem, but problems are usually evident in early behavior changes.

This advice is more in a general sense and applies loosely to this situation. I hope you don't feel I am picking on your DHLMaster. You may very well be doing everything right.

I hope you find this helpful. You haven't given any other particulars on your HLs, like lighting and cage size, or even species, although I'm guessing you have DHLs
Drop rkhorne a private msg and see what he has to say. He has more experience with DHLs than most for sure and also with feeding alternate diets. Also, you can at least make sure they are well hydrated, using bottled water. Tap water at this stage could also exacerbate the issues you are having.
How many lizards do you have?
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www.phrynosoma.org

I really don't think trying to "stretch a dollar a lot further" is the best advice to give to someone with a malnurished/underweight HL. That's an unwise example to offer in the care of HL's, especially with the new people that are reading. "Especially if ants are on the way". If that's the case, then why be cheap? What newbies are going to read into that is "bigger is better", and a "cheaper route".

I would also have to take exception with the assertion that "soft bodied" equates to "easy to digest". I can show easily enough with evidence in hand on my metabolism research that this is not the case. Crickets are composed of a high amount of saturated triglyceride fats. Larger one's contain much more, obviously. These triglycerides require much energy to break down into useable free constituents in the bowels before being available for caloric use. Thus, it would be obvious, as myself and Lester have discussed this before on a previous thread as well; that taxing a sick, malnurished, or underweight HL's system with more work than necessary will result in a net loss in the lizard's condition. It will manifest as lower metabolism and immune response the more you give it to do.

But don't take my word for it ( redundant instructions for some of you )....just call a herp vet and see what they tell you. A sick, malnuorished, underweight reptile actually needs less in caloric intake in order to recover.

Also make sure you see the anapsid.org references in the "hatchling health issue" post above, relating to prey size and problems. As prey size is important to HL's too, I think this is potentially relevant given that you are feeding crickets larger than pinheads to your hatchlings.

And as I stated before, a little larger size cricket like medium-small is ok for an older HL in good health.
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"A man that should call everything by it's right name, would hardly pass the streets without being knocked down as a common enemy." The Complete Works of George Savile, First Marquess of Halifax 1912,246

What some folks will do does not change my advice. My experience has shown me that even 6 week old hatchlings can handle a size above pinheads without issue. Mine are now several months old and about half of them can take the "small" size from Petsmart. The rest still get the even smaller sizes. I am lucky in that a couple of the local pet shops have about 5 sizes of crickets to choose from. Petsmart is either "Big" or "Small" which makes it more difficult. But even their small's sometimes have little guys in the batch, which is helpful.
The soft bodied cricks being easy to digest is relative to the larger ones being much more difficult. If you read it in context you will catch that. You bring out a good point though in what quantity may be healthy and that is worthy of discussion.
If you are nursing back an emaciated juv or adult, what quantity of food are you recommending for each size? (Or by weight?)
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www.phrynosoma.org

"What some folks will do does not change my advice."

I kind feel this way too. But I often get complaints when my advice is above the "heads" or capabilities of the average keeper, or perceived unsafe for the less experienced that may be reading, or too much to ask of the average keeper to have time or dedication for. Just enforcing the standard I've been subjected to for so long.

Yes, "soft bodied" or smaller crickets are "relatively" easier on digestion. The exoskeleton of older crickets contain more chitin, the chitin is more solidified, and there is also the prey size complication by itself. Wild caught crickets or crickets exposed to UV have darkened and even more hardened exoskeletons. Chitin is a strong natural polymer, composed of a nitrogen containing polysaccharide ( carbohydrate ). It is used in resins, a thickening agent for foods, and in temporary sutures. So it is biodegradeable, but takes a while to break down. Then there is the fat content and type as well. So the smallest/youngest crickets available is the wisest choice, even if it costs more money to buy them that way.

There are indeed differences is descriptions and sizes of crickets at different places. Usually smaller local shops carry a wider variety of sizes to cater to specific demands. The larger corporate stores don't think this is cost effective catering to a niche or type of reptile that needs smaller than the "small" size they carry. They tend to push sales of fruitflies instead. I usually buy at Petco, but it requires that you get your crickets a day or two after they get a fresh shipment. This is when you will find the really small one's mixed in, and it helps to know somebody working there who will go through the trouble of picking out the smallest crickets for you.

There are several complicated methods and formulas for determining the standard metabolic rate of a reptile ( also commonly referred to as basal rate (BMR) or minimum energy cost ( MEC ). One method includes monitoring oxygen consumption, CO2 production, body temp., heart rate, and flow volume. This method is known as gas exchange stoichiometry, and has been called into question as being less accurate than the more complex bioenergetic energy transfer methods of explanation, which factor in almost every bodily process in mathematical form through reaction pathways ( reactants, products, synthesis, etc ) to render the answer.
Two slightly less species or individual accurate, but far easier approximations of minimum metabolic requirements are:

Y = K (M)0.75
Y = the resting animal's energy output in kilocalories (kcals) per 24 hours
K = a taxonomically dependent constant, and
M = animal's body mass in kilograms.

K for reptiles being a value of "10"

An easier expression of the SMR/BMR/MEC formula is:

(kcal)=10xWt.kg 0.75

( wt. in gm. divide by "1000" ) scientific calculator function "x^y" enter ".75" x "10"

Another even easier given by M. Kaplan is ( wt. x wt. x wt. )sq.rt.)sq.rt.)x 10

Example: a 50 gram Horned Lizard
50/1000=.05kg
"x^y" .75=0.1057
.1057x10=1.057 kcals/d

So the 50 gram HL requires approximately a little more than 1 kcal ( 1 calorie ) per day to meet minimum energy requirements at rest, at optimal body temperature!

Fluker's gives a different formula of ( wt. kg ).77x32 @86*F body temp.

Not sure where they get that, I found another source from a DVM which is similar but gives the .75 x^y factor, rather than .77. But it renders an answer of 3.186 kcal/d, just over twice as much as the first 2 examples. Hence, probably why they recommend 50% of SMR in kcal/d for emaciated reptiles considered "severe". So according to Fluker's a severely emaciated reptile of 50grams should receive 1.59 kcal/d. Nearly the same figures.

For emaciated or sick reptiles in moderate condition that will not eat on their own, I may force feed small prey. If they are in more serious condition, I use a puree of blended prey along with saline and/or Pedialyte, and I've even used Gerber baby food such as chicken puree through a stomach tube and syringe. If I cannot approximate the calories reliably, then I try to go by Kaplan's 2% of body weight per day recommendation, give or take. In the example above, it would be 1 gram/day for a 50gm HL.

It is preferred to treat most emaciated HL's with ants, though I don't have the caloric information available on them yet. But for treating an emaciated HL with crickets: The cricket (Acheta domestica) may vary between 1.5-5.0 calories (kcals) per gm. depending on hydration and gut loading state. The lower end of the scale is for normally hydrated and feed crickets. So it doesn't take much to meet metabolic/caloric requirements.

If the lizard is warmer and more active, just a little under weight, then up the caloric intake 25-50% above SMR. If it's sick and less active then you should stay closer to the SMR figures and not overwork the system.

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"A man that should call everything by it's right name, would hardly pass the streets without being knocked down as a common enemy." The Complete Works of George Savile, First Marquess of Halifax 1912,246

"A sick, malnuorished, underweight reptile actually needs less in caloric intake in order to recover."

That is to say: "less" being relative in comparison to caloric intake during periods of normal health. They will benefit more quickly from less overall caloric intake, or from foods that can yield sufficient energy at a lower metabolic cost ( than say larger crickets, fattier foods, etc. ).

Minimum or base metabolic rate for maintaining organ function is obviously temperature dependent for reptiles, but reptiles have low cost of maintaining a metabolic rate at a given temperature. Reptiles on average have a 50% efficiency of energy conversion to biomass on what they take in, compared to less than 2% for mammals. That's tremendous, and that's why reptile young eating often grow very big, very fast. So when a reptile has a stress causing condition, including being emaciated, a reduction of calorie intake ( or high metabolic cost foods ) can help reduce work load on other organs and immune system, yet still yield plenty enough calories to maintain the rate required for the organs to function, and still put on wieght too without overloading an already stressed system.

Much the same way that people when sick tend to desire lighter food, such as soup, instead of a steak. There is a biological reason that equates to the body trying to maximize efficiency under stressful conditions in order to recover more quickly. A doctor would advise against an anorexic binging to recover, and a vet would advise the same caution trying to fatten up an underweight reptile. It has to be done slowly or methodically with the right food. ( hydration protocol is just as important, but not my current subject )

I recently turned around an emaciated solare using ants. It took a little more than a month and she more than doubled her wieght in that time. I didn't even give her a cricket until after she had gained about 15grams and I knew her metabolism and other functions were normal. Crickets and mealworms seem like they would fatten up a horned lizard more quickly, but it just seems that way. When I tried to fatten up other HLs in the past on bigger crickets and mealworms; what I got was an overall slow down, and it took much longer to achieve the same results.
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"A man that should call everything by it's right name, would hardly pass the streets without being knocked down as a common enemy." The Complete Works of George Savile, First Marquess of Halifax 1912,246

Just want to go along with Mark on his last post for this, while the food is important, when I think of a skinny HL, hydration is also an important part of this as well, so be sure they are drinking and getting enough water. Make sure your temps are up and don't forget the night temps need to be up as well. People will raise up the day temps but not the night and I think this effects their metabolism in staying in a summer eating mode. Just a few thoughts for your to consider......
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