Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I have a question to throw out. Yesterday one of my cornutum hatchlings was acting odd. He seems to have lost his equilibrium. He would run with his head cocked to one side and go in semicircles. He couldn't walk straight. He seemed healthy otherwise and is not skinny at all. I've had one other one do this last year. Both recovered within a day and seem fine now.
Has anyone else experienced this or know what might cause it?
Thanks
-----
www.phrynosoma.org

Sounds like an infection or organ disfunction. Reptiles can get infections causing loss of equilibrium, the same as people. The tympanic membrane over the ear could be punctured and led to infection. There is also a general term known as "star gazing" that refers to some of these neurological symptoms. This could be trauma or toxin related too. In the case of organ disfunction and/or infection not caused by trauma or toxins; genetics, extreme temperatures or nutrition problems leading to lowered immune response, or many other things could be the cause.

As well, there is this from anapsid.org; which I call a site of recommended reading. It is also one of the reasons I do not recommend feeding of larger crickets than necessary to young HL's, in contrary to what you and reptoman have stated in the previous threads.

http://www.anapsid.org/adenoviruses.html
"The most common cause of neuromotor problems in young bearded dragons can be caused by feeding them prey that is too large. For more information, see the following excerpt from the Feeding section in my Dragons Down Under: Inland Bearded Dragons article:

You must feed very small prey to baby bearded dragons. While the rule-of-thumb for feeding lizards says that it is generally safe to feed prey that is 2/3 the size of the lizard's head, this is not advisable with baby beardeds (0-4 months). When fed prey that is too large for them, serious physical problems often result: partial paralysis, seizures, ataxia (loss of motor control), inability to self-feed, gut impaction, even death. Start with feeding pin-head crickets and tiny, freshly molted worms, moving only slowly and gradually to larger sizes, phasing in day-old pinks when they are ready for them. Despite the fact that most stores sell animals that need them, most don't sell pin-heads, so you will have to order them directly from a cricket breeder; you can order mealworms from them at the same time.

Gut impactions, as from retained insect chitin, can cause loss of appetite, rapid weight loss, dehydration, lethargy, and ambulatory problems as the gut tries to move the mass along, food cannot be digested, the gut becomes infected and gassy from the food rotting, and pain and cramping set in. Loss of appetite, lethargy, dehydration are also the most common signs of a wide range of bacterial, parasitic, fungal, mycoplasmal, and viral illnesses. All avenues should be explored, and in the case of young bearded dragons (most of the survivors of which outgrow the neuromotor symptoms as they get older), great care must be taken when selecting the insects being fed out, making sure to feed small, newly molted ones.

Note that some viruses, such as the boid inclusion body disease, does cause ataxia and stargazing, two neuromotor signs."

-----
"A man that should call everything by it's right name, would hardly pass the streets without being knocked down as a common enemy." The Complete Works of George Savile, First Marquess of Halifax 1912,246

Fireside, I would appreciate that you look at what I said about horned lizards and feeding. I specifically said that I am comfortable feeding a prey item of up to 3/8 the size of the head. So if you have a baby or nonate Hl that would mean that a very small cricket such as a pin head. In an adult that would mean that a 1/4 inch and maybe slightly larger would be fine with me. While you state some anticdoal information we all have horned lizards and many years of experience, so quote my correctly if you will,and while you open to your opinion not everyone here is of the same, and I do appreciate your insights, I just don't like to be taken out of context either.

I do agree that large insects are probably left to collards and others, after-all if you've observed horned lizards in the field they are like vaccums and feed on small prey, I have seen them go for grass hoppers but as a general rule they do eat small prey, so I don't think there is anything inconsistant with what I have said that doesn't also match up with my own observations and understanding of HL husbandry.......
-----
Phrynosoma.org

______

signature file edited. [phw 11/14/04]

Sorry if I misunderstood your position Reptoman. I've been fighting a virus the last few days so I'm not at the top of my game. But honestly, I sometimes find your posts hard to follow as far as context anyway, even when I'm not sick. I did not misquote you though. In fact, I did not quote you at all. My summation or understanding of your opinion on prey size came from your last post in the "order problem" thread where you stated:

"Just want to go along with Mark on his last post for this, while the food is important, when I think of a skinny HL, hydration is also an important part of this as well".

It seems you are agreeing with previous statements without qualification. So you might see where confusion could result about your position on that issue. There is a much greater chance of having context misunderstood when your context is not so clearly defined.

I didn't see your statements about "3/8 size of the head" in that post. Perhaps I missed it from another thread.
I do offer a lot of anecdotal information from experience. However, I also post, probably, more scientifically backed information and references overall than most do. Things that I'm always being told are too scientifically in depth for the average herp keeper. So forgive me if I feel that under those circumstances my opinion is an informed one, and a little more than "anecdotal" in most cases.

-----
"A man that should call everything by it's right name, would hardly pass the streets without being knocked down as a common enemy." The Complete Works of George Savile, First Marquess of Halifax 1912,246

Fireside I'll give you this, that you most always support your views with something from a sight and I can appreciate that.

Admittedly I am so busy that I don't have the time to reflect on some of the responses as maybe I should, and in fact be a little more consise in my answers. THanks for your response and I move on... Certianly we all are bringing some intersting conversation that merits us studying some of this when it warmns up and getting a more difinitive answer if there are grey areas that can be pinpointed. Some of this is a matter of opinion.....and somr is unarguably fact, we all can post our opinions and I am gald that I can, whether anyone agrees or not-- also I haven't stopped learning and the conversation sharpens us all............

There's certianly no argument with respect to small prey if you look at my above post, and I have had many beardies as well over the years, and I am aware of to big a prey is definitely a contribution to sending them off into la la land......

Hope your feeling better, everyone around here has that same thing.........

LAST OF ALL AND JUST MY CURIOSITY - not to prolong a dead horse, what is your problem with wax worms, do you put those in the same catagory as mealworms? As stated above I do feed wax worms to my horned lizards as a treat from time to time, but like you I am pretty much an ant man but I do mix in a few here and there..... Also I am aware that big wax worms are hard for the HL to swallow and so again small prey wax worms, but they are nutrious and have moisture in them as well... I have seen HL's regurgitate these because they sometimes over eat, or if temps are to low they will do that as well. But nornmally they go through the body and are digested well not like other feeder insects I've seen that look like they went straight through but weren't digested? I would like to know more about regurgitation in HL's as opposed to other lizards, I am sure most people who have had Hls for any time have observed this, I am just curious if this is all from prey? Or other factors or both??????
-----
www.phrynosoma.org

______

signature file edited. [phw 11/14/04]

Sorry it took a while to respond. The sick lasted all week.

No "prolonging the dead horse" taken. We need to talk about these things and I've never gone in depth into my prejudice on waxworms.

Maybe I haven't seen enough of them; but I've never seen any that looked small enough for my liking with HL's. The one's I see sold are anywhere from 3/4"-1", and I think thats just too big to be safe in a HL. A turtle, an older beardie or iggy...ok, no problem. But not in a HL. If you can get them smaller, say about the size of an adult mini mealworm, I think then it's ok as a treat every now and then.

The other reason I have is that waxworms aren't really nutritious either. They're worse than mealworms in fact nutritionally. The only thing better about them is their chitin isn't hard and scaly like a mealworm. Silkworms and earthworms would be far better nutrition wise if you can get small ones. I have also seen "Butterworms" that seem to have good numbers, but I think that was after gut loading. I've been trying for a while to see if I can get a HL to take a small earthworm, or part of one as you can cut them up into pieces and they still resemble just a smaller worm.

Silkworm (Bombyx mon)
Cal.=1.0-4.2/gm
Cal. from protein=54%
Cal. from fat=43%

Waxworm (Galleria mellonella)
Cal.=2.1-5.7/gm
protein=27%
fat=73%

Mealworm (Tenebrio molitor)
Cal.=2.1-5.0/gm
protein=37%
fat=60%

Earthworm (Lumbricus terrestris)
Cal.=0.5-3.1
protein=73%
fat=13%

Protein is more important for regular intake than fat for amino acid requirements. So the feeder with so much fat is not a good one to use regularly. Holding with that logic is one reason, among many, why I use ants instead of crickets as everyday food.

Moisture content cannot be assumed to be proportional by looking at how fat a prey item is. Actually crickets and both species of fruitfly contain more moisture and more protein that the waxworm by percentage. 5-10% less in waxworms by volume. The reason for this, is precisely because the waxworm is so fat. Why exactly you ask? Because saturated triglyceride fat is stored in the tissues anyhydrously. That means in a water-less state. So the fattest insect is usually the one with the worst moisture content because that water storage space is being used by fat tissue instead.

The fat content % of waxworms is 3 times as much as for crickets and fruitflies.

www.doylesdartden.com/food.html

However...if we're talking about moisture potential: fat produces more metabolic water per gram when burned than carbs or protein. Fat produces 107gm water per 100gm fat burned. carbs=55/100gm, and protein=40/100gm. But that doesn't make fat superior necessarily as a water source. That fat has to be burned first, which may be a while. In the meantime, that excess fat is tying up normal water storage that is more readily put to use. And fat has a higher energy cost to use as well. Though it also yields more calories when metabolized vs. carbs or protein ( 8.5kcal/gm vs. 3.5kcal/gm ); those are excess calories not really needed by the low metabolism reptile during normal "non-dormant" activity, and wouldn't be needed if it didn't cost so many calories to metabolise anyway. I kinda view this as strapping more batteries onto an electric car to get more mileage; which makes heavier and uses more electricity to propel.

Some fat is important during the summer months though, for absorption of fat soluble vitamins, such as D. I'm not argueing for zero fat. But most people way, way overuse crickets, mealworms, waxworms, and the like in HL's. It is far more common for people to overfeed a reptile than underfeed.

Another consideration is that after talking in depth with one of my biology consultants on this a month or so ago, she told me that ANY type of insect larvae is really not the best thing nutritionally to use as food. Reason being that the larvae is in a growing stage and is converting everthing it takes in very rapidly to growth for metamorphisis. It is not attempting to maintain a homeostasis of nutrition such as a mature insect would be. I think that explains why the listed larval stage insect feeders have such poor numbers where it counts, compared to the fruitfly, cricket, and earthworm; which are not larvae.

There is a biological theory going around that I've heard, that basically holds that the lifespan is shortened the more calories a body has to metabolize in a lifetime. It ages the organs more rapidly through "oxidation", which is another word for what happens during "metabolism".

In my experience with regurgitating reptiles, it's usually one of a couple things: either the prey is just too large; or it has some type of toxin or chemical release that is making the animal sick or is not palateable. I personally have never witnessed a regurgitation in any of my HL's. A few in some others, like a snake...but not a HL. But I have never used waxworms either.

I think a big clue as to whether you are getting too large on prey is whether the lizard has to grab the prey and drive it into the sand to make it submit, if it has to shake the prey, to make multiple gulps to get it down like a croc eating a gazelle, or whether it does the dry heave "Blah" thing with the tongue sticking out after gobbling down the prey. Those are big clues the prey it too big. Prey should be taken down the throat in a swift fluid motion after the simple flick of a tongue, in my opinion.

Not sure if it is valid, but another item that is kinda off the wall is the concern I've heard from a few people in relation to geckos; that the waxworm as swallowed whole, may pose a risk from it's relatively large mandibles that might still be in motion inside the stomach. This has me pondering whether a HL can sufficiently cover with saliva such a large feeder and prevent such internal damage.

Hope that answers the question.
-----
"A man that should call everything by it's right name, would hardly pass the streets without being knocked down as a common enemy." The Complete Works of George Savile, First Marquess of Halifax 1912,246

Thanks for the info. After reading M Kaplins page I am guessing that he may have got hold of a too large cricket. He's in the same tank as larger HL's so I feed a variety of sizes. The fact that the symtoms seem to pass after a day or so supports this. This lizard is the smallest of the bunch at 2 grams.
If this is the actual cause it does support feeding prey items that match the lizard, and a good arguement for seperating hatchlings by size as they grow. The largest in the group is now about 6 grams. Quite a size difference.
-----
www.phrynosoma.org

Ive been sitting here scratching my head trying to figure how too large a prey item can cause such an issue. I can see them choking etc. but "stargazing" Additionally if that info came off of one of Kaplans care sheets, i would take it with a grain of salt as they are know for not being the most accurate. However I do absolutely agree that prey size should match the animals ability to consume it.

Good to hear from you Gordon! Haven't seen you around in a while man.
-----
www.phrynosoma.org

Yah still hanging in there. Trying to survive the cold weather here in So Cal.

Whaa? Did you read the information Gordon? It goes into pretty specific detail about how this could happen, and seems very plausible to me. Discomfort, elevated body posture and such kinda fits the profile, and Montanucci seem to have made a similar connection with crickets and gastroenteritis in his husbandry notes. "Star Gazing" is kinda a generic symptom though, rather than a disease.

I'd have to disagree with you about Kaplan. She is pretty well regarded on her information, and it being supported with exhaustive citations from other sources. If you go through her site you will see that. A lot of the stuff on her site is not just her own, or of her thoughts alone. There are numerous herpetologists, biologists, and DVMs that have also contributed and agreed with what she puts out. There seems to be some debate stirred up about her Iguana diet, by someone trying to market a competing diet. But I just read an article that debunks the challenger and supports not just Kaplan, but similar diets. The article was contributed to by a Katherine Kearns-M.S. molecular biology-UT, a Dr. Adam Britton-Ph.D of zoology-Director of Crocodilian Research & Consulting from Charles Darwin University-Aus., and an Anne Marsden B.S. Genetics from London University; among others.

If you have some information from a source you hold in regard that might contradict information on Kaplan's site, I'd be interested in hearing it, as her information is usually highly regarded and many people use it.

-----
"A man that should call everything by it's right name, would hardly pass the streets without being knocked down as a common enemy." The Complete Works of George Savile, First Marquess of Halifax 1912,246

Fireside3 Thanks for the clarification. I was thinking "stargazing" more as it relates to other "illnesses" MBD etc. Alas like common names it is as you have said a generic term which can cause tremendous confusion. I have to agree that crickets are often not the most user friendly item to feed, i frequently see all to poorly digested remains when I use them. I can see where discomfort would give the impression we are speaking of, I sure know how I feel when I have bitten off more than I can chew.
It has been a long time since I have looked at the Kaplan situation so do not recall all that has been said however none of it was good, the diet issue was only part of it as I recall. However if you were to go to a certain other website which is not allowed to be mentioned here at kingsnake (under pain of being banned from this site, and deletion of the post)and do a search it is probable you will find several posts which address this issue.

Wow...a website that's so dangerous it can't be mentioned, even outside of China! Well, I'm open to hear anything anti-Kaplan to see if it's valid or if I can poke holes in it
Can you email me the name of the subversive site so I can see it for myself?

-----
"A man that should call everything by it's right name, would hardly pass the streets without being knocked down as a common enemy." The Complete Works of George Savile, First Marquess of Halifax 1912,246

Try faunaclassifieds.com