Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Since we now have several guys who actually spend time in Asia I figured I'd take advantage and get some info.

1) From your experience which asian countries have a reptile trade, and what kind. For instance, China has a snake and turtle trade for food. In addition, there is at least some export (from at least Hong Kong) for the pet industry. How do other asian countries (Japan, Korea, Taiwan, Vietnam, Burma) compare. I've seen a few exporters in Malaysia and Indonesia but are there also importers there who sell "exotics" like american herps. I've seen japanese web-sites that include lots of corn snakes, king snakes, ball pythons, etc. What about ROK and Taiwan. What do they have and what do they want? Have you ever seen a website that lists exporters/importers for these places? What are the wildlife and animal laws like in these places?

These are the kind of questions I have.

Thanks for anything you can contribute.
Regards
John

Hi John
TW sort of follows Japanese crazes. Snakes are just starting to get popular in the pet trade here. The pet shops here have mainly,US snakes, but I have noticed a influx of snakes from all over the world, and more and more herp shops are popping up all over. There is a demand for high end morphs, of the smaller more commoly kept species, Kings, corns, milks, Leopard geckos, The market here is very new, anything sells. Including animals with heavy price tags.
To me it looks like the maket will explode or crash it's reached a tipping point. At the moment the herp shops here are a mess, I honestly feel sorry for the animals that end up here, however some do end up in good homes, and the herp shops are improving.
I'v never delt with any importes, I did see a TW importer exporter advertised here on Kingsnake.com, but never contacted him.

Dinodon:
That's interesting. My read is that the american herp market is going through a slump right now. These things are as cyclical as the stock market. As a hobbyist with no real financial stake the only problem is that a contraction could lead to the loss of some really nice lines. Otherwise it's just a great time to pick up quality snakes at bargain basement prices.

Would you happen to remember the name of that taiwanese importer/exporter on kingsnake?

Regards
John

No I ment the Japanese market is going crazy, The Taiwan market follows them, but Taiwanese strongly belive snakes are bad luck. But it's changing.
I have found some very nice US animals here, but they're not cheep. I'm always looking for a bargin and often visit pet shops, I see the same animls for months, so I know they'r not moving.

John,

I can't really help much, but I found it interesting that dinodon mentioned snakes weren't very popular in Japan. There is only one pet shop that I've visited near my inlaws house (in a mall), and I've never seen a snake for sale there......multiple visits over the past five years.
I've seen ornate box turtles, as well as foreign "tortoises," and a lot of Sceloporus sp. Some of the scelops were large and dull, probably Texas Spinys (olivacea), and some were small, perhaps undulatus ssp.??

That's about all I know.

Shane
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Lifelist

John, good questions.

Japan- Shane ok can probably answer this better than anybody. What I do know is that the Japanese may not have been into the reptile craze as early on as Europe and the US but they are well ahead of all the other far east countries. They are well known for very high end herps and i have seen things offered there that i have never seen in the US. They also demand high quality from their suppliers. So much so that if you look at the US exporter lists you will see the term "japanese perfect" on animals meaning simply that the animals are in primo condition. One of my exporters told me that when he sends a shipment they will complain about ANY defect (missing toenails, etc.).

Korea- Lloyd Lemke was importing turtles and some iguanas some years ago. He imported tons of turtles but the buddhists would buy them during holidays and write a message of hope on their backs and release them in the rivers/streams. Due to the environmental imact, Korea has not allowed red ear sliders to be imported for many years. Somewhere along the way tortoises were also banned but there are plenty of torts available from smugglers here (stars, radiated, pancake, you name it and they got them). I have imported for 3 or 4 years now. You name it and i import it (if it is legal). Mostly low / medium priced herps because the main market here is very young customers (21 and under). When i first started there was not any real dedicated importers and supplies were non existant. I was having to bake and crush egg shells and oysters for calcium. Later I found cuttlefish bone at china medicine shops. I finally got a pet supply importer to start carrying reptile supplies from manufacturers like zoo med. Since I started doing the reptile series for a sunday morning program called animal farm, the reptile craze has really taken off. The only problem now is that there are a lot of young guys importing and selling reptiles over the internet from their house. They are what i call reptile whores because they sell them dirt cheap so they can move them fast and do not have to feed or care for them long term. They are killing the pet stores. Fortunately I had enough forsight so when i imported for resale i held back the best stuff for future breeding projects. This year i should produce 500 or more kings and corns. I have actually already produced over 30 species since i set up over here. Of course i have done things like beardies, leopard geckos, veiled chameleons, boas, colubrids, etc. but some of my other projects are now starting to kick in. My albino boa is gravid (as well as many norms, My albino balls will produce this year as well. I also have many other projects in various stages such as D'alberts, amethystine, carpets, chondro, uromastyx (i love them and was probably one of the first in the US to produce Mali's back in the 80's). I also buy baby burms and retics and grow them big for my zoo market (I sell to all of the zoos in Korea). I do not sell retics to just anybody and did not plan to breed them but I actually got a few deals on some albinos, tigers and other morphs so i have set them up also to produce for zoos and responsible/experienced hobbyists. My argus monitor just laid eggs today for me!.

Indonesia- my friend over there has exported for many years. He has a huge and gorgeous farm were he also does a lot of breeding (not only native species but things like veiled and panther chameleons too). He imports a lot of herps for the pet trade also. I think the market there is not as strong but it is there none the less.

China- I have a friend from korea that used to live there. He went back there this year. He said there was a very good assortment of herps. Of course lots of turtles and tortoises too. I think that with China opening up and the economy kicking, that there will be a huge opportunity there for someone to make some money in the business. I am surprised that with the low cost of labor that someone has not started a huge breeding facility there (or maybe they have). Czech republic and indo probable produce most of the veils in the US market now for that very reason.

I do not know if i gave you an insight on the trade over here or just babbled on but either way I got to kill some time on my favorite forum so thanks for the question. I look forward to hear from some of the others on their point of view.

Thanks, Don

Don:
Thanks for the reply. There's plenty there for me to think about.

I'll just start now with the japanese part (busy at work today).

What you say about Japan makes sense to me. There must be some high-end collectors there that import what they want(just as there are high-end japanese collectors for everything from french impressionistic painting to Beatles memorabilia). But I get the feeling that the general public there isn't as interested in reptiles as the general american public. And exporters of japanese fauna seem to be scarce.

John, I read somewhere that the reason there are so few albino alligator snapper hatchlings available in the U.S. is because the Japanese outbid all other buyers by a longshot. Interesting note that Don mentioned about the "Japanese perfect" category. The pet store herps I saw looked like death warmed over, so I guess that was due to the pet shop.
After I posted my first Japan report a couple of years ago, Dick Bartlett emailed me saying that he used to see a lot of Japanese stuff at the import places, but that he hadn't seen the species I posted in years. I get the feeling that he was talking about the '60 and '70s. It is strange that there are so few conspics available, given the apparent demand. Perhaps they were more common at one time, but fell down a similar path as the Bismarck Ringed Python........beautiful hatchlings, but rather drab adults????? I've heard that a few people keep Mamushi and Okinawa Habu, so obviously there are a few that enter the states......

Shane
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Lifelist

Shane:
It is curious. You could be right about the conspics. Maybe they are as hard to get started as wc mandarins. What I need to do is find an american importer who has a contact in Japan. But who has time to find out all this stuff? Well if you ever hear of a good importer please let me know.
Regards
John

Contact, Rex Knight. He has several groups of conspics, one of his specialties, that he is breeding. I think he has an exporter from Japan. You need to get these as cbb. They aren't cheap, because they are in demand and I'm sure he has a waiting list. I got a pair a number of years ago, raised them up, and sold them back to Rex. I never had any problems with them. They ate from April to October, at least, and nearly year 'round as juveniles. Need to keep them fairly cool, or they stop eating.

Terry

Hi Terry:
I'm on Rex's waiting list and have been in touch with Shuto. I think it's worth looking to see if there are any other sources.
Regards
John

John, someone in CA was posting about his conspics a few yrs ago. I wonder what ever happened to him?

TC

I know someone here in MI in a herp related business that told me at a herp show that the Japanese buyers dropped, like, $30,000 just on shirts, caps, etc, alone. I'd say they do a lot of business and have some high end stuff. Japan has a nice herp magazine also.

TC

Sounds like Korea has an evolving reptile marketplace. I admire your entrepeneurial spirit. It's also nice to see someone who enjoys the animals working with them. A lot of pet stores here sell what's popular regardless of whether they know how to keep them alive. Very sad. Hey I had a pair of Mali uro's for years. They are easily one of the most interesting herps of all. If I had the room right now I'd have them still. Glad to hear your projects are prospering. It's a very exciting thing to produce something new. Good luck with those monitor eggs.

Interesting how staples like panther and veiled chameleons are now being exported from Indonesia. Maybe one day I'll be exporting mandarins to China!

If there are any large reptile breeding facilities in China then I haven't heard about them. But I'd be ecstatic if someone would start breeding mandarins, bamboos and moellendorffi there. I'd settle for someone who exported healthy wc's.

Thanks for your post. It was exactly what I was after. It has been a blast talking here. Let me know if you ever get info from inside China about the mandarin ratsnake business. That would be interesting to me. I think if they ever got a good reptile vet involved in that business they could make the mandarin a very popular snake.
Best regards
John

John, I think there's been shipments out of Shanghai and I know of at least one exporter and breeder in Hong Kong. They have developed some mutations, like hypo beauties, etc, and have Mandarins and others. I don't import, so I just look at the pictures.

PS: I believe Bangkok used to be a big export city.

TC

Terry:
If you have a breeder's name in Hong Kong (other than ProBreeder) or Shanghai I'd be interested in it.
Regards
John

Not at this time, John. If I hear of anyone I'll let ya know, however. I've lost track of ones I knew of in the past.

TC

You guys have been busy posting while I was gone. I had a photo shoot with a gorgeous Hungarian model yesterday. Man do I have it rough or what? haha

Anyway, I did not address the laws. I suspect for the U.S. there are two main reasons you do not see some of the Asian herps there. The first is that some of these countries protect their native species and do not allow export. Korea is one of them. The only true Korean diones in the US (legal ones) are from the original stock that Lloyd Lemke exported from here many years ago. All of the other diones you see out there come from China or elsewhere or are illegal. The other reason is simply that some countries have not realized the market/demand yet but still hold potential provided someone steps up and starts to export. On the reverse side is the difficulty importers from the US have locating responsible suppliers. Not only is there a lack of quality cb stock but I personnally know many people who have been burned by corrupt exporters. Africa is probably the best known country for export/import rip offs but they exist everywhere. I imported from Africa one time for a zoo here and although i got the shipment in it was shi* and if you can believe this, the reptiles where shipped in 8 x 10 manila envelopes! Unbelievable.

CITES has also caused many problems and although i understand the reasoning behind it, there are serious flaws with it. The last cb original CITES that i got from the US took 6 months to issue. In that time period I recieved at least 3 shipments of wc retics! I just do not understand why it takes less time to get wc permits than it does cb. It should be the other way around.

Well, let me go read all the new entries and if i have time i want to throw some anomala pics on.

Thanks, Don

You poor guy. Forced to spend time photographing scantily-clad beautiful women. Well, we all have to earn a living somehow. I'm about to go into a meeting with a delightful bunch of over-caffeinated anal-retentive pharmaceutical executives. It's the highlight of my week.

It is problematic sending $1000's to someone you've never met in a country beyond the jurisdiction of US law. But somehow it can be done.

Talk to you soon.
John

You guys are killin' me with these job stories. I just got done with 3.5 hrs straight doing P. E. with Kindergarden and 2nd graders. Guess how many shoes I've tied, noses wiped, discipline timeouts done, and directions given? This afternoon should be better, just have to keep the 6th graders from destroying each other. 87 more days and I'll be a "herpin" maniac...LOL!

Don, great info on the reptile markets, but sympathy for your job...give me a break...haha!

TC

Terry:
It's always interesting to see what the other guy is up to. I'll stick with my own private insane asylum of a life. But it does give me ideas about my next career.

It finally cooled off over here. It's plenty cold and we might even get some meaningful snow next week. But I'm already contemplating mandarin breeding plans. This should be the year.

Cross-connecting posts, the west coast guy with conspics was Steve Emerick. He's sort of disappeared. Too bad, he was a really good guy to deal with and was a great rehabilitator of wild caught mandarins.

Regards
John

Yep, I remember, Steve. I just forgot his name for awhile. Getting up there ya' know. He had some nice animals. Wonder what happened to all those?

It's pretty darn cold here in n. MI, too, down to 0*F a couple times. However, much of our swamp is still not frozen over. I need to be able to walk on water to do some of my winter work/maintenance. We don't have much snow cover either, just a few inches. Even so, hope this weekend is a little warmer, 'cus I can't go outside when the high is only 9*F.

I've been thinking about the Mandarins, also. These guys are something. One pair is brumating at 50* and they still can be seen crawling around like it's no big deal. On the other hand, they do pretty well when you don't brumate them. Very interesting. I'm thinking of breeding one of my pairs in a couple more months.

Take care...Terry

Man, that is rough. I hope you have some pics of the Hungarian model holding anomala.........that should be considered on topic....lol

Shane
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