Reptile & Amphibian Forums

would feeding science diet seafood hard catfood to my ast be alright when hes out of fish ??

what about worms, insects, thawed out rodents, crayfish, reptomin, trout chow

i just wanted to know iof its ok on occasion

NO!

Actually I'm going to recommend against it. I know it's definitely bad on a long term basis as the food is totally off balance for a reptile and will result in some pretty terrible nutrition disorders. Including viseral gout, which is a result of the too HIGH protein content in the food resulting in protein waste products becoming deposited in organs including kidneys. This disorder is irreversible and fatal. And for that reason alone it really has no value in their diet. As suggested here by the above postee, there are far many more selects that are superior to using cat food at all. Even canned reptile food in a pinch is better than cat food.

I'm not a nutritionist but how can dry cat food be too high in protein for an animal that lives almost exclusively on fish? Most dry catfoods are about 30 to 40% protein and the rest is vegetable matter like corn meal or soy meal. I would think that pure fish would be much higher protein than that.

"I'm not a nutritionist but how can dry cat food be too high in protein for an animal that lives almost exclusively on fish?"

But it's a mistake to consider a fish as just a glob of protein. Fish contains a lot of fatty acids (see below). In addition, protein isn't just "protein", there are TYPES of proteins. Perhaps it's the way that meats are often misrepresented as the "protein". Meat contains MORE than protein. When I speak about protein, I mean amino acid chains. Not the "protein" food group.

"Most dry catfoods are about 30 to 40% protein and the rest is vegetable matter like corn meal or soy meal."

Actually both CORN and SOY contain a lot of protein and serve as the main protein component of almost all processed pet foods. What LOOKS like chunks of meat in canned cat food is actually SOY. Big chunks of PLANT protein. Also consider that cat food is specially formulated for a CATs digestive system and liver metabolism, not a turtles. If you'd like more information on dog and cat food components I'd recommend seeing if you can pick up a copy of Small Animal Clinical Nutrition by Micheal Hand et. al.

"I would think that pure fish would be much higher protein than that."

Fish is actually more fat (and fatty acids) and less protein. The protein is has is more easily digestible protein than cat food. Refer the this link: http://www.annecollins.com/protein_diet/protein-in-fish.htm
Now these are just example fish, and this would be the parts of the fish PEOPLE eat. We don't eat the brain or intestines. Brain is mostly fat BTW. But 3 oz is about 85 grams. So... is you do the math and most of those on that page are about 20-25 g per 3oz serving... that's about 30% at most... then you add in the organs the turtle eats that we don't and we drop the protein content down considerably.

Now as far as the type of protein in fish. The easier a protein is to digest and absorb (like in fish) the less protein is available for the gut flora to turn into ammonia. Ammonia gets turned into uric acid by the liver (in birds and reptiles). The kidneys can only excrete a limited amount and once this level is exceeded this uric acid crystalizes within the tissues. Especially in the kidneys in reptiles (joints more often in birds). This is called gout.

Regardless - From review of veterinary case work all cases of visceral gout in reptiles stems from a diet of too high protein or feeding an inappropriate protein source. Cat food is one of the BIGGEST culprits now that people stopped feeding monkey chow to iguanas. So regardless of how you try to imply that cat food can't hurt, veterinary literature and actually clinical casework tells a different story.

interesting information there and probably true. i once "powerfed" a small snapper on f/t small adult mice. the growth the snapper put on was great but he also developed a bone like growth under his throat area. while they will eat mammals in the wild (a big one will eat a coon) overall they have a varied diet and probably should stay away fom single prey diet like i was offering.

Thera, Like I said, I'm not a nutritionist but it sounds like maybe you are. Thank you for all the info and the very comprehensive response. Perhaps I am over simplifying it. I will read up on it as you suggest. Have you found a pelleted feed that is proper for snappers? How about the science diet feeds for senior/geriatric animals that are lower protein? Again it's not made for turtles but......
One problem I have found with the pelleted turtle feeds is the size of the pellets and the price. It seems rediculous to be feeding a 20 pound turtle handfuls of reptomin. I also feed quite a bit of thawed/frozen fish but someone once told me that thawed fish is also lacking in some essential nutrients. That there is something about freezing it that alters the mineral or vitamin content. Have you heard of this?
I'm sure this all boils down to the cliche but accurate advise: feed variety!, variety!, variety!
Thanks,
Jeff

mazuri feed has diets for all types of animals. i have fed my snappers on the croc diet large pellets. they also offer one for water turtles. both come in different size pellets and also a gel that can be mixed and stored in the freezer. the only problem i had with it is that i had to make more water changes. but to sum it up as for as pellet foods go, ally snappers remind me of dinosaurs " they want to hunt. they dont want to be fed" LOL

thats a good idea! Especially since a lot of zoos use the Mazuri brand, I bet it comes in bulk forms.

yes, i ordered a 50lb bag from the local feedstore for under $25. i got the large pellet (biscuit size) croc diet.

I know that at turtle farms in other countries where they raise turtles for meat they use trout pellets (food for trout). I bet you could get that through a farm or feed store. That would be far more appropriate, even though it's fish. But from what I've found is that that is far more similar to turtle foods than cat foods are.

Again, its not just the protein, but the type. Also cats require high protein throughout their lives. It wont matter what you choose. It's still going to be high concentration of protein made for a mammal's liver.

If a turtle was fed cat food and developed gout, and the animal was then put on a more correct diet. Does the condition correct itself or is there permanent damage that is irreversible to the internal organs? Just wondering Jack

The main problem is the damage the deposits do to the organs. Recovery depends the organs involved. Some organs are better able to recover than others. Typically gout effects kidneys in reptiles and this damage is not reversible. Kidney failure typically being what kills these guys.

I DUNNO IF ITS GOOD OR NOT, BUT I GIVE CAT FOOD AS A TREAT B/C MY SNAPPER SEEMS TO LIKE IT. its not an everyday thing. just once or twice a month.
~kin
-----
~Sober Serpents~
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~SNAKIES~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Corns:
.1 Normal (Gertrude) [just a pet...she started it all]
1. Orange normal (Romeo)
1.2 Miami Phase (Hector, Emily, Charlotte) thanks jeff!
2. Miami Phase part zigzag (Starkey, Mcvitty)[Emilys F2]
1. Amel het Blizzard (Dunesbury) .1 Blizzard (Detta)
1. Classic het Hypo, poss het Amel, Anery (Cobra)
1.1 Classics (Henry VIII, Cassy) [Emilys F1 babies]
.1 Sunglow Amel (Pepperoni)*1. Sunglow coming soon!
1.1 Hypo zig zags poss HET Caramel (Bernard, Abegail)
.1 Hypo HET Stripe (Gracie Lou) 1. Hypo Stripe (Gideon)
1.1 Anery HET Motley (Lleroy, Persia)
.2 Candy Cane (Peaches HoneyBlossom[Just a pet], NO NAME)
1.1 Abbotts Okeetee (Albert[Charlottes son], NO NAME)
1.1 Snow (Crickle, Isis) .1 Green Snow (Maya)
1. Caramel poss HET Butter (Topher)
.1 Anery stripe (V) [husbands snake...he named it]
.1 Orange Reverse Okeetee (Lonna)
1.2 Bloodred HET Amel 1. Amel HET Bloodred

Others:
1.1 Black rats (Willard, Cecily)
1.1 Striped Cal Kings (Dweezil, Skunky)
1. High-white Reverse Spotted Cal King (Wishbone) *.1 soon!
.1 Albino Stripe Cal King (Eve)
.1 Bananna spotted/stripe cal king (Speckle) Thanks Jeff!!!
1.1 Thayeri (Giuseppe[MSP], Cheyenne)
1.1 Creamsicle HET Motley(Orangejello, Genevieve)
1. Creamsicle motley (no name) Thanks Jimmy!!

~~~~~~~~~~~~~LIZARDS~~~~~~~~~~~~~
.1 Blizzard Leopard Gecko(Blitz)
.1? High yellow Leopard Gecko(no name)
1. Bearded Dragon (no name)
~~~~~~~~~~~~~TURTLES~~~~~~~~~~~~
.1 white cheeked mud (Opel)
.1 snapping turtle (Snappy Jaws)

Not a good Idea, catfood has vitamins that can cause problems in water turtles--