Reptile & Amphibian Forums

At last.

Dinodon, bimacs and dione are pretty hard to differentiate. Hopefully someone will step in and help you out. Really healthy looking critter.

regards
John

Bimaculata and dione are hard enough to tell apart when they are normal, but albinos are really difficult. To tell the truth, this snake doesn't look like either one. It actually looks like Oocatochis rufodorsata, the red-backed ratsnake....

Photo by "Philippe".

Notice the eye somewhat forward on the head making a fairly short snout and the eye slightly high on the head. I know it's really hard to tell, wish I had the snake in hand; but, if we had scalation data, like from a shed skin, we could probably be more accurate.

Rufodorsata females get up to 90cm. Is this one a female? They also can have 19 or 21 mid-dorsal scale rows. The scalation on the side of the head is somewhat diagnostic also. Rufodorsata is pretty much a fish eater. Adults will also eat small mice, lizards, etc. Any feeding notes?

I'm pretty sure it's not a dione, too many things not right there. Bimaculata is the other possibility, but I have some doubts. Notice the more elongate head of this albino bimac from Pro Breeder...

Bimaculata has a snout twice as long as the eye diameter, while rufodorsata has a snout 1 and 1/2 times as long as the eye diameter. And finally, this albino is a much different color tone than yours.

All in all, it's a stunning snake, and it would be fantastic if it were a bimac. It would still be pretty cool if it were a rufo, and a first. What do you think??

Terry

Terry I agree it's a O rufodorsata. I had an idea it could be something else.
She is eating mice. Thanks for the ID.

Ok, you're welcome. Hope it keeps doing, ok. Keep us posted.

TC

Definately Oocatocus rufodorsatum, just like Terry said. Totally and utterly awesome specimen!!!

I can't find much husbndry info on Oocatocus rafodorsatum, or any one keeping them ?
You guys have been a gret help thanks.
Heres a pic of a juvenile Patyas mucosus and an addult.

>>I can't find much husbndry info on Oocatocus rafodorsatum, or any one keeping them ?
>>

Not many people keep "rufos". There was a time when hundreds were imported, and they sometimes were confused with Elaphe bimaculata or E. dione. But not many people wanted this species that starts on tiny fish as babies, has tiny little babies of their own born live, and is not much like a ratsnake in other ways too. A lot of people don't even consider them ratsnakes, at all. I always thought they were a lot like bimaculata and dione and wanted to keep a pair, but they were hard to find, and ones I did get often had parasite problems from being w/c. I never did establish any.

Rufodorsata normally is semi-aquatic and eats aquatic prey, probably small fish to begin with. They might graduate to small mice when closer to adulthood and probably eat a few other prey items, like lizards. I would experiment with different kinds of food items, maybe even frogs. Your snake probably is w/c and has some preferences based on its wild existence.

I would give it a dry terrarium or other caging, with a dry hide and maybe a moist hide too. I'd put at least one water container in its cage, large enough for it to soak in. You could also try putting food items in the water jug. A burrowing medium probably wouldn't hurt.

Keep us posted and thanks for the pics...TC

I believe Oocatocus has been clustered with Coronella, or so I've heard. In the early '90s I must have seen hundreds for sale, but now they're simply not available anymore.

Anyway, these aren't the easiest snakes to maintain, this goes especially for juveniles. It should be kept and fed like a gartersnake, rather than a ratsnake. In K.D. Schulz's legendary monography on ratsnakes you can find all the information you need.

Regards, Herman.

Thanks, Herman.

According to their latest paper, Utiger et al.(2005) suggest that Zamenis also has "phylogenetic affinities" with Coronella and Oocatochus. These genera are in the "ratsnake" clade, or tribe, Coronellini, as proposed in the paper to be the proper title for the group.

Higher taxonomy always seems to be changing and is hard to come to terms with, even for the professionals. Taxonomists tend to differ about phylogenetic affinities, and stuff, and there's likely to be more future proposals. Oocatochus does seem to have some characteristics in common with Coronella, however, such as live-bearing reproduction.

I think what might have happened with "O. rufodorsatus" is that they were imported during a time when not much was known about the Old World ratsnakes; there was a push to learn about the Old World ratsnakes and keep some in collections; and "rufos" were fairly easily confused with dione and bimaculata, and thus sold as the others at times. There were times when discussion got a little heated, whereas some good folks insisted they were a garter snake and not a ratsnake. I think it has been settled now that they are a ratsnake, although in a different grouping from most other Eurasian ratsnakes.

Although very few hobbyists care to work with rufos, personally, I'd still like to try them someday.

Thanks for the post. Hope I didn't ramble too much...

Terry

Ramble? No man, I love that stuff!

I think the reason why this snake has disappeared in the hobby, is because it was imported in great numbers and dumped on the market for very low prices. It got the image of just another cheap and common asian import snake, therefore the species was ignored by most 'advanced' hobbyists, and most specimens must have died in the hands of absolute beginners. If it were imported in very limited numbers and sold for very high prices, history would have been very different.

Take care,

Herman.

I like rufodorsata also. Although I have very painful memories associated with my experience with them. I bought a pair back in 1999 and unfortunately my quarrantine precautions at the time weren't as good as I thought they were. I ended up getting a mite infestation in my collection that cost me several foxsnakes and the rufos to a pyrethroid poisoning incident. I learned a valuable lesson about buying wild caught snakes at reptile shows from someone I didn't know (it's risky). That sort of soured me on rufodorsata but if someone had captive breds I'd be interested. Until things went south they were feeding pretty freely on guppies and small goldfish. They were kind of like exotic garter snakes. Pretty things too.

The confidence numbers for the Zamenis and Oocatochis/Coronella branch were pretty low (60/30) but if you squint at a situla and a rufo just right then maybe they kind of look like distant cousins (or maybe I'm just getting really nearsighted).

Anyway, a good post.

Regards
John

John, thanks for the comments and the rufo notes.

As far as the taxonomy goes, I sometimes have to scratch my head too. When I first saw that they were putting Zamenis in with Coronella/Oocatochus, I laughed and thought, "What next?" But, then, it is their data, and that's what the data is telling them. Since I know little to nothing about the Coronella and too little about Oocatochus, I can't really comment much. It just seems a little strange to me.

Wish I knew someone who was working with rufodorsata...

TC

I find it strange that no one kept them going in the US. I might have just got lucky,but mine was taking FT mice 2 days after I got it, and hasn't refused a meal so far,But I'v delt with snakes before that are easy to keep as adults but near impossible to raise as hachlings. I'd like to pair this one up, but finding an other will be a long shot.

Hope you have luck finding a mate for it. I think they are pretty common in China, but I don't know how often your importers get shipments.

It looks like yours is a full grown adult, so it probably was taking the occasional nestling mice in the wild. Lucky for you. I think if would be more difficult if you had gotten a much younger snake.

Good luck with it...Terry