Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I just picked up 2 Abronia graminea, 2 A. taeniata, and 4 Xenosaurus grandis. Is anyone else working with these out there?

im not working with any of em but would love to see some pix if you have any
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0.1.0 Colombian Tegu
0.0.1 Argentine Tegu
1.3.4 Southern Alligator Lizards
1.3.0 Leopard Geckos
1.0.0 Western Hognose
1.0.0 Ball Python
0.0.1 Golden Gecko

i wish...

Wow. Where in the world did you acquire those from? Those are definately the two most beautiful alligator lzards in my opinion. Hope they do well for you. I would love to see pics.

Thanks
Andy
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0.0.2 Bearded Dragons
1.1 Mali Uromastyx
0.0.1 Agrentine Blk & Wht Tegu
1.2 Leopard Geckos
0.0.1 Blue Tongue Skink
0.0.3 Desert Iguanas
1.1.2 Western Chuckwallas
1.1 Red Back Chuckwallas
1.1 Granite Spiny Lizards
1.2 Rubber Boas
1.1.4 Rosy Boas
1.1 Western Hognose
0.0.1 California Kingsnake
1.0 White sided Bullsnake

For everybody's information:

TERRESTRIAL ARBOREAL
ALLIGATOR LIZARD
(Abronia graminea)

Geographic range: Neotropical: Endemic to Mexico. Found in pine - oak and cloud (mesophylic) forests of Veracruz, Puebla and Oaxaca.

Conservation: Species listed in NOM (Norma Oficial Mexicana) as species in risk, due to significant habitat loss, small area of distribution (estimated to only around 11, 500 sq. km) and suspected pressure from illegal trade.

illegal trade
illegal trade
illegal trade

SABATUER typed:

Conservation: Species listed in NOM (Norma Oficial Mexicana) as species in risk, due to significant habitat loss, small area of distribution (estimated to only around 11, 500 sq. km) and suspected pressure from illegal trade.

illegal trade
illegal trade
illegal trade

Pardon me but...
It seems as if you are under the impression that illegal trade is responsible for putting this species at risk. The language that you so craftfully pasted into your post clearly states that illegal trade is only SUSPECTED(=not proven) as one of the reasons putting this species at risk. However, if you took the time to read through the literature regarding Abronia, I'm absolutely positive that you would deduce that nearly the entire genus is facing emminent extinction due to habitat loss. A very REAL problem! It should be noted, that in Mexico, Guatemala, etc., much of this destruction goes by unchecked. Meaning that there is no government body responsible for making sure that these organisims are not wiped off the face of the planet when the ecosystem they dwell in is being annihilated. This is even the case in areas designated as a reserva biosfera or parque nacional. You see, these areas represent no more than lines on maps when it comes to the amount of REAL protection they are granted by the government agencies responsible for protecting them. So, the proper echo of your post should ring out:

Ecosystem destruction
Ecosystem destruction
Ecosystem destruction

I'm not a proponent of illegal collection, but the hands of 1,000 collectors would have a difficult time collecting ANY species of Abronia to the brink of extinction. The same cannot be said to the tens of thousands of hectares of pine/oak woodland and cloud forest habitat that continue to be destroyed at a rapid pace.

I look forward to reading your reply. That is if you choose to respond. Judging from the nature of your post, you are only trying to stir up trouble.

Adios,
Roberto

Roberto:

I wonder why somebody keeps a pair of Mexico's endemic under spacial protection lizards?

Maybe is a scientist that came to Mexico with a conservation of project, got all requirments of mexican laws and got permision to collect a pair of legal lizards, wich are Mexican nation propiety under the care of the scientist, so start to studying and expanding the specie.

or

Maybe is a nice person giving a lot of love and care to a pair of homeless, horphan and lizards.

i agree with you that habitat destruction is the main trouble, but not the only one.

i dont agree with your statement: "the hands of 1,000 collectors would have a difficult time collecting ANY species of Abronia to the brink of extinction", if your statement were true, why would be ilegal to collect this or other species, if doesnt represent any significant pressure???

i dont understand why you felt my previous post kind of rude, wasnt my intention, im not trying to stir up any trouble, i only try to express a concern and share some information, wich is the main purpose of this forum, isnt?

"Welcome to the Alligator Lizard Forum. Here you may post messages or questions pertaining to all aspects and issues regarding the keeping, breeding, health, and of Alligator Lizards" (craftfully pasted)

the only one with the right of banning me is the moderator of this forum, so, you may write your posts regarding alligator lizards, no with my supposed intentions, dont judge me, because im not judging anybody....

the only way to get legal WC abronia is described above in the scientist way.

>, SOMETHING ILEGAL IS BAD.

saludos.
PD: disculpa mi pesimo ingles.
SABOTEUR.

Saboteur,

Apologies for misinterpreting the sentiment of your initial message. The trouble that I had with that post was that you ended with an emphasis on illegal trade. I could not help but assume that you were making an inference that the individual that started this thread (or for that matter any person not directly associated with an institution that is keeping Abronia in captivity)is involved with illegal trade, therefore partly responsible for the species' endangerment. This was the way that I read into your post, and my response was based on this assumption. It was not a personal attack on you. I have no desire to see you banned from this forum. I'm glad that you did respond and express your concern for these animals more clearly.

You ask: "...why would be ilegal to collect this or other species, if doesnt represent any significant pressure???"

If my understanding of current Mexican laws regarding the collection of native plants and animals is correct, it is illegal to collect any species, regardless of how rare or common the species is thought to be, without having a scientific-collecting permit.

In response to collection representing significant pressure: there are no published accounts(that I'm aware of)that show that Abronia species are in decline as a direct result of collecting. If you are aware of data in support of this, I would be very interested in seeing it. I'm not suggesting that Abronia be collected en masse for the pet trade. However, if the limited areas where these lizards occur in nature are not protected and continue to be destroyed, what sense is there in protecting them from being collected?
Also, because there is no feasible way for the Mexican governmet to stop the complete destruction of remaining Abronia habitat, officials must make an attempt to show some level of protection over these rare and endangered lizards, so the easiest thing to do is enforce strict regulations on collection. Enforcing regulations over habitat destruction much more complicated and difficult, as it stands in the way of "progress".

Please understand that I feel that Abronia spp. are in need of significant protection within their natural habitat. If Mexican laws say it is illegal to collect, so be it. Ultimately, if the habitat of these lizards is not protected, these laws will have had very little consequence.

I look forward to hearing your views.

Adios,
Roberto

im so happy that all misunderstanding were cleared.

i live in Mexico (were do you live?) and because of my job i have seen sadly how the most beautiful cloud forest and mangrooves are destroyed, and how herps are considered a dangerous pest, all because industry, petroleum, and bussines.

i try to to keep myself optimist, once a person talk with me about herps, i think i changed its mind, and it looks to work a little bit.

saludos.

Saboteur,

I live in Tucson, Arizona. What part of Mexico do you live in? Do you work as a biologist?

I have traveled extensively in Mexico, mostly with botanists.

Adios,
Roberto

I live in Guadalajara Jalisco, i work as a manufacture engineer, i travel much to Tampico and Veracruz, my company build offshore platforms and petrochemical equipment.

Im not a biologist however im a herp hobbist(lover), I have a friend biologist, Eduardo Fanti, do you Know him?

Just wanted to point out that my lizards are legal and backed by the appropriate Mexican and USFWS paperwork. They were captive produced in Mexico, and some of the procedes from their sale will go towards Abronia habitat conservation. I appreciate the concerns voiced as there has been an illegal trade in these species in the past........and Roberto, thanks for getting involved in the discussion.

Senor Egernia,

I'm always obliged to participate when there is an interesting discussion on Abronia taking place!

Adios,
Roberto

Saboteur,

I do not know your friend. Have you observed Abronia in habitat during your travels to Vera Cruz or elsewhere?

I drove through Guadalajara once to visit a population of beautiful agaves. The species name happens to be Agave guadalajarana. If you have any interest in plants, you should make a trip to see them.

Adios,
Roberto

from agaves comes tequila, so, beutiful and tastefuly...each time i go to the beach (puerto vallarta) we load fuel (tequila) on tequila city...ja

I have not seen abronia on Veracruz, yet... im planing to go to Tamaulipas-Veracruz (and maybe texas) on march-april, im looking foward to get an indigo or a cribo, i will do my best to share pics of abronia in the wild with you guys...

egerniaman:

were did you get those lizards???

Roberto,
That was well put. Some people are just that ignorant to the real situations on this planet. Always wanting to point fingers without knowing the real truths.
Clark