Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Kudos to Shane and Don for some nice discussion of E. davidi and possible Korean locale. Now here's another asian rat that nobody ever gets to see, Elaphe bella. Schulz has it in his collection (I think) and has a small section on his website (see link).

But that's about it. Utiger indicates that bella might be akin to Euprepiophis but doesn't have any data to prove it.

This snake lives in Vietnam, extreme southcentral China and Myanmar (but it'll always be Burma to me!).

In addition to being rare, inaccessible and unavailable it's a really pretty looking animal.

So let's see if anyone can volunteer anything new about this one. I'll go on record as saying that if any educational or scientific entity provides me with E. bella, in deference to its special status, I promise to use a much higher quality sweater box as housing (definitely no sterilite, possibly a premium rubbermaid!).
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K D Schulz' Bushmaster Ratsnake site

Hello,
I tought it is not a elaphe species anymore I tought it is qualisified as Oligodon bellus.
But I am not 100% sure..

Bets regards,
Gidi

Hey Gidi,

I've heard the exact same thing.

Regards, Herman.

I'll have to get my hands on the paper that re-assigned it. If it is so it makes me wonder what the relationship is of Oligodon to Elaphe, Euprepiophis and the other related genera.

Thanks to both of you for the information.

Regards
John

Actually I just found a webpage of the EMBL Reptile Database that show the genus changed from Oligodon to Elaphe in 2001. Has there been a change back again to Oligodon since 2001?
Regards
John
Link

Hi,

Yes I tought so. But not 100% sure.

Gidi

A Kukri? I realize that the Asian "ratsnakes" are a very diverse group, but I had no idea that it stretched so far as to include anything that could be considered Oligodon???? Strange.

Shane
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Lifelist

Shane:
I'm leaning toward the Oligodon name being an early mistake. This animal has been called Coluber, Coronella, Oligodon and Elaphe all in less than 100 years (discovered 1917). It has a lot of resemblance to mandarina and porphyracea (was thought a subspecies of porphyracea back in 1934). Of course since no DNA work has been done on it anything is possible but I'm betting it's in the ratsnake group (broadest sense). Of course now that Gonyosoma and Coelognathus have tentatively been branched closer to old world racers than ratsnakes I guess it wouldn't be too surprising if another "ratsnake" got shifted out but I think this one is a keeper. We'll have to wait for Schulz to hand over some tissue to Utiger et alia for testing.

I've only seen photos of Oligodon. What are they like? Do they equate with any familiar snakes that I can use as an analogy?

Regards
John

John, I thought Oligodon were in a class of their own, They are very Terrestrial,They have evolved to eat reptile eggs, They do eat small mice but tackel them totaly different to constrictors. Oligodon all have long front teeth for cutting the reptile eggs, I thought if those teeth were absent it could not be a Oligodon. This whole thing is very confusing to me.
Here are some pics of a pair of Oligodon formosanus I'm keeping.

Don:
Thanks for posting that photo. Very interesting looking snake. The info I've seen says that E. bella is a rodent eater. I didn't see any reference to longer front teeth. That adds to my feeling that the Oligodon label was an early mistake. Of course as I've said, without a DNA comparison it's difficult to be 100% sure of anything. My read is that it's a ratsnake. But please feel free to pass along info on Oligodon. They look interesting in their own rite.

Best regards
John

>>Kudos to Shane and Don for some nice discussion of E. davidi and possible Korean locale. Now here's another asian rat that nobody ever gets to see, Elaphe bella. Schulz has it in his collection (I think) and has a small section on his website (see link).
>>
>>But that's about it. Utiger indicates that bella might be akin to Euprepiophis but doesn't have any data to prove it.
>>
>>This snake lives in Vietnam, extreme southcentral China and Myanmar (but it'll always be Burma to me!).
>>
>>In addition to being rare, inaccessible and unavailable it's a really pretty looking animal.
>>
>>So let's see if anyone can volunteer anything new about this one. I'll go on record as saying that if any educational or scientific entity provides me with E. bella, in deference to its special status, I promise to use a much higher quality sweater box as housing (definitely no sterilite, possibly a premium rubbermaid!).
>>.
>>K D Schulz' Bushmaster Ratsnake site

Hi

I believe that Frank Burbrink has done some work with this species and has a paper which proposes a new taxon for bella is in press

IN PRESS :- Burbrink, F.T., Lawson, R., How and when did Old World ratsnakes disperse into the New World?
Molecular Phylogenetics and Evolution accepted (by Molecular Phylogenetics and Evolution) 17 September 2006,

Available on line at www.sciencedirect.com & http://www.ratsnakefoundation.org (members content Feb 2007 reproduced with permission from the author)

The paper also proposes several other taxomic changes concerning 'ratsnakes' and is a very interesting read indeed.
The Ratsnake Foundation

I'll get my hands on that paper and read it as soon as I get home tonight. Are you over in the UK?
Regards
John

>>I'll get my hands on that paper and read it as soon as I get home tonight. Are you over in the UK?
>>Regards
>>John
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Hi John

Yes in a village near Leicester UK, I quiet often lurk on this forum, there are some very informative and interesting posts happening recently. I have a keen interest in the asian species as a hobbyist and have several in my collection at the moment as well as some of the european 'ratsnakes'. You guys are great for sharing info .. but I feel like it's a gentlemans club only and don't want to intrude

Sue x
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The Ratsnake Foundation Online Society

Welcome.

Sue I'd say that this site is pretty friendly. The on-line herp world is definitely a mixed bag and you never know who'll show up but this site has a pretty mellow group. The censors keep it from getting too heated. It's nice to have folks from all over. And some of my favorite ratsnakes are from Europe (I picked up a pair of german longissima a few years back). Feel free to chime in whenever you like. Haven't seen too many of the gals writing in lately but there are a few with some excellent ratsnakes.

Best regards
John

>>Welcome.
>>
>>Sue I'd say that this site is pretty friendly. The on-line herp world is definitely a mixed bag and you never know who'll show up but this site has a pretty mellow group. The censors keep it from getting too heated. It's nice to have folks from all over. And some of my favorite ratsnakes are from Europe (I picked up a pair of german longissima a few years back). Feel free to chime in whenever you like. Haven't seen too many of the gals writing in lately but there are a few with some excellent ratsnakes.
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>>Best regards
>>John

John there was no way I was implying it not to be a friendly forum far from it, you guys are great

Thankyou for sharing your photo's they are brilliant, have you found them easy to rear ?

I kept longissimus a few years back for a while, but never had any luck with breeding them, the female would always produce infertile eggs, but I do have a story to share about them which might be of interest and that is about a population of these in Wales in the UK.

During the mid sixties at the Welsh Mountain Zoo , a gravid female escaped into the grounds of the zoo (or another story says a group of these escaped) In the early seventies hatchlings were spotted in the zoo grounds at first they were assumed to be our native grass snake because of the yellow collar on there neck, but were positively ID'd as Aescalapians. Over the next 30 years more have been spotted both adult and young. So it seems we have a thriving population here, they have also been observed outside of the zoo grounds.
There was a study under taken lead by Wolfgang Wuster of Bangor University (I believe the paper is available on his website).

Another paper you might find interesting asuming you havn't already read it is:
Action Plan for the Conservation of the Aesculapian Snake(Zamenis longissimus) in Europe

http://www.coe.int/t/e/cultural_co-operation/environment/nature_and_biological_diversity/nature_protection/sc26_inf19_en.pdf

Thanks for your warm welcome
Sue x
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The Ratsnake Foundation Online Society

No problem.

Thanks for the kind words on the pictures but really I've got a long way to go before I can compare to some of the really excellent herp photographers I've seen on line. But we all need something to aspire to.

In terms of raising longissima, they have been pretty easy. I haven't bred them yet. I cooled them for the first time this winter but I believe the female is too young. Maybe next year.
In terms of breeding, I've been lucky in that the winters in New England are cold enough (typically) for even the most cold loving ratsnakes to cycle. I work with foxsnakes and they are notorious for needing a cold brumation. Of course this has been a unique winter. It only started getting cold the last two weeks here. So I've got my fingers crossed.

I had heard something about a local longissima population in the UK but I didn't know the details. That's very cool. Considering the legends of the legionaires carrying longissima to the corners of the Roman Empire it could almost be considered a re-introduction.

Thanks for the links. I'll have to catch up with my reading soon.

Best regards
John

Thankyou for the insight into your experiences with longissimus, I wish you well with your breeding project with them. I asked really because I had heard that the hatchlings were little so and so's to get started, although i guess if your buying from a reputable breeder this is not a problem, but maybe when you produce your own. Although like i mentioned earlier my experiences with them were many years ago, which was when i did most of my research.

Temperature wise here the UK, we are experiencing yet another really mild winter, a lot of breeders are expressing concerns about not being able to get the animals cold enough for any length of time. Some are considering modifying fridges for brumation especially so for the european species and like you mention the fox snakes.

I guess every country has certain problems to over come for the species we hold dear to our hearts, whether it be brumation temps, summer heat, humidity.

Sue x
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The Ratsnake Foundation Online Society

I'm getting used to hatchling problem-feeders. I've had two pairs of mandarins in the last four years that absolutely refused to eat on their own. Both had to be force fed for six months. After dealing with that I almost feel like I'm qualified to raise the dead. But who knows. These little buggers have no gratitude for the lengths we have to go to keep them alive!!!

Regards
John

>>Thankyou for the insight into your experiences with longissimus, I wish you well with your breeding project with them. I asked really because I had heard that the hatchlings were little so and so's to get started, although i guess if your buying from a reputable breeder this is not a problem, but maybe when you produce your own. Although like i mentioned earlier my experiences with them were many years ago, which was when i did most of my research.
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>>Temperature wise here the UK, we are experiencing yet another really mild winter, a lot of breeders are expressing concerns about not being able to get the animals cold enough for any length of time. Some are considering modifying fridges for brumation especially so for the european species and like you mention the fox snakes.
>>
>>I guess every country has certain problems to over come for the species we hold dear to our hearts, whether it be brumation temps, summer heat, humidity.
>>
>>Sue x
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>> The Ratsnake Foundation Online Society