Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I got 2 pair of gray and 2 pair of green in last friday. Some came in looking great. A few were more typical with bad sheds and rubbed noses. They were wc and of course had a nice collection of ticks. I am acclimating them now but they seem to be doing good. A few of them have already eaten for me. I also got a very nice pair of radiata in that i am very pleased with. Here are a few pics. Thanks for looking,

Don

The last pic shows their nice set of teeth. It sorta looks like a hognose from the angle i took the pic.

I gotta tell you that of course they bit me several times but it had been a while since i messed with them and had forgotten just how spunky they can be. Sometimes they will bite, hang on and then bite down harder. Somewhat like a tokay gecko. Gotta love em'.

Thanks, Don

Looks like they were lucky enough to find a great home. Very nice animals. Thanks for the pics.

I'm impressed with the space and amount of collection you have at the back. You're lucky to get feeding ones, as almost all the WC adults we catch in P.Malaysia do not feed very well. Except maybe the juveniles.

Cheers
hans

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NT

Very interesting species, Don, but I'm not set up for anything tropical, so I've never kept them. Great pics.

Terry

The gray and yellow ones are my favorites. Those are handsome critters. I always wished I had space for a nice big display of gray oxycephala or nice high yellow spilotes pullatus. Large and colorful arboreal snakes in a big display would be impressive.
But I barely have room for my little stuff. You're a lucky guy.
Thanks for sharing.
Regards
John

>>I got 2 pair of gray and 2 pair of green in last friday. Some came in looking great. A few were more typical with bad sheds and rubbed noses. They were wc and of course had a nice collection of ticks. I am acclimating them now but they seem to be doing good. A few of them have already eaten for me. I also got a very nice pair of radiata in that i am very pleased with. Here are a few pics. Thanks for looking,
>>
>>Don

Beautiful animals, the oxycephalum has got to be my all time favourite species. We occasionally get them imported into the UK. Usually just the green ones, occasionally the javan solid grey with yellow spots on the scales.
Theres a photo of a gravid import laying eggs shortly after me aquiring her.

and a pix of one of the three resulting hatchlings

Photo of an Albino by a friend of mine Darren Biggs from Crystal Palace Reptiles in London UK. The animal died whilst being treated by a vet shortly after landing on our shores.

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Sue:
I've heard that there can be problems with hatching out oxycephala eggs. A couple of people have mentioned that sometimes the snakes can't cut themselves out of the eggs at full term. I'm not sure if this was cb or ch eggs and I'm not sure if it had something to do with humidity but it sounded like something that had come up repeatedly. Any experience of this with your animals?

John

>>Sue:
>>I've heard that there can be problems with hatching out oxycephala eggs. A couple of people have mentioned that sometimes the snakes can't cut themselves out of the eggs at full term. I'm not sure if this was cb or ch eggs and I'm not sure if it had something to do with humidity but it sounded like something that had come up repeatedly. Any experience of this with your animals?
>>
>>John

Hi John

yes it's something I've read repeatedly, but seems to be more with captive bred oxyies rather than captive hatched, maybe diet related or like you say humidity / incubation substrate. I believe Timo is doing some work related to egg incubation / diet in oxys & taeniurus sp. Will be intersting to read his conclusions later in the year when he publishes it.

I've only had experience with WC oxyies, and these were the first eggs of this species that I have hatched. But I can share how I incubated them.

I incubated the WC females eggs in damp spagnum moss, laid them on the top and then a light covering over them, in a sealed plastic icecream tub with a small beaker of water at one corner of the container. checked on them about once a week to allow air exchange. I started incubation at 80F after two weeks reduced it to 78F and then for the final days judged by the eggs loosing rigidity and taking on a softer feel, I laid layers of damp paper around them. At day 90 the first hatchling pipped it's egg followed by the second and then day 91 the third pipped successfully.

The best website I have found for information on oxyies is
http://www.kicktheghost.com/gonyosoma/index.html it really does have some great advice on it and loads of it.

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I'm the guy who did the extensive research on much of the data on the kicktheghose site, collecting anecdotes and published papers from collectors all over the world. A lot of work but I'm glad that someone has already found it some use. Please note that the site is not mine, although I am mentioned.

Basically, the eggs laid by gravid imports are extremely easy to incubate and hatch. They do fine at mid 80's and standard substrate moisture. But something seems to happen after females have been in captivity for a while and the eggs suddenly seem to be much more difficult to hatch. So it does not only apply to captive bred and born specimens.

Fascinating group of snakes, that's for sure.
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Current snakes:

0.0.1 Gonyosoma oxycephala - Java locale (green)

1.2 Gonyosoma oxycephala - Jave local (green)

2.2 Gonyosoma janseni - Seleyar locale (all black)

1.2 Gonyosoma janseni - Celebes locale (Black & Tan)

Thankyou chris for the research and making that data available for others to absorb.

Do you think that perhaps it is a diet related thing then, if over time the females eggs are harder to incubate, maybe the increase in clacium from their diet in captivity?

I've just passed on the address of that website to a friend of mine who is picking up some imports on tuesday. Very little data has been shared on this species so to happen on that website was brilliant.

Sue x
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I suspect it's a myriad of things that lead to what we witness in captivity. One idea that is hard for me to ignore is that there is some sort of facultative response to environmental conditions. There are enough observations of Gonyosoma to know that they can lay eggs early or late in the gestation process and that they can lay eggs in a variety of conditions.

The areas these snakes come from have widely dramatic shifts in climate, water levels, etc. It could be that during rainy periods, for example, these snakes lay softer eggs that the female has not gestated as long. This is supported a bit by captive observations of females kept in rain chambers who lay their eggs in solid clumps around upper tree branches in their cages.

Conversely, in dryer times, females may be conditioned to gestate their eggs a bit longer and produce thicker eggs that are less sensitive to drying out. This is supported in part by the majority of captive females who lay heavily calcified eggs in more terrestrial situations.

From what I have gathered, I suspect these changes occur a bit too quickly in captive females for diet to be the significant contributor. Some sort of facultative response seems to be a better fit.
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Current snakes:

0.0.1 Gonyosoma oxycephala - Java locale (green)

1.2 Gonyosoma oxycephala - Jave local (green)

2.2 Gonyosoma janseni - Seleyar locale (all black)

1.2 Gonyosoma janseni - Celebes locale (Black & Tan)

Firstly Nydon, cracking shots, they are beautiful animals, this is a species that I have watch from a far but am delving into, as Sue mentioned, I shall be recieveing 3 of these beauties on Tuesday, so this weekend shall be spent setting up the quarantine homes.

Any information on settling, will be greatfully appreciated, I am reading your work Chris over and over at the moment, as to prepare.

What I have planned is a 2x2x2 wooden viv per snake, newspaper substrate to monitor stools, one moist, one dry hide with climbing branches and some plastic foliage - in a quiet room.

What do you think of this set up for them? hints/tips/thoughts please.

Sorry for hijacking you thread Nydon.
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peach, I have placed them by pairs in a couple of different set-ups but the ones that have eaten already are the ones i put in tall plexi tanks. I am going to move them to a larger setup after they are quarintined and acclimated but use these tanks initially. I leave the bottom bare so i can collect stools for fecal samples. I initally added a water bowl but have found they do not really drink from the bowl but will drink copious amounts of water when sprayed/misted. I cut out the tops and placed screen mess on top for a heat lamp and then place a piece of plexi over the portion not covered by the lamp to keep the humidity up. I just remove the plexi and spray several times a day through the cover so i do not have to open the door to disturb them.

I have been busy but look forward to checking out the link given on the thread. This forum has been great and always gives me useful info, links etc. Keep us posted on how your new arrivals do and i will do the same.

Thanks, Don

Thankyou Don.
The mesh screen does sound like a cracking idea, unfortunatly I'm unable to do that with this vivs I have. But a thought for the future, I spent yesterday getting the vivs ready, so just have to wait for their arrival now.

With regards to their diet, I read that some Solely feed on birds, have you had any issues with this - do your accepts rodents?

Only birds I could possibly offer are thawed chicks!!
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ratsnakefoundation.org society

peach, so far the only ones that have eaten for me are the greens. They are taking mice readily but the grays do not want the mice so i may try some finch and see if it will motivate them to eat. I actually thought that it would be the other way around as it is my understanding that the green are more arboreal in nature so i thought their diet may lean more toward birds. I am hopeful i can get them acclimated and would love to produce some but like everything else, only time will tell. I will let you know how things progress. Let me know how yours do as well.

Thanks, Don

Thanks for that, hope your grey's start feeding soon too. yes will definately let you know how it goes.
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ratsnakefoundation.org society

What I have planned is a 2x2x2 wooden viv per snake, newspaper substrate to monitor stools, one moist, one dry hide with climbing branches and some plastic foliage - in a quiet room.

I always acclimate imports in plastic storage totes that are about 31" x 17" x 12" - that's length x width x height. Due to the sloping sides of the boxes the floor area is actually a bit smaller.

Imports do not seem to acclimate as well in larger cages and your 2x2x2 size may be a bit on the large size for this period. From my experience, it seems like reducing the floor area seems to cut down on how stressed the snakes get. In other words, you could cut your cages in half with a temporary divider and leave then a 2' tall and it will probably be fine for the snake. You do not also need to cut the height down.

One other thing about cage size is that I prefer to keep Gonyosoma in cages that are long and narrow. If you have a door or lid that opens at one of the narrow ends the snakes are more willing to retreat to the opposite end rather than holding ground and striking at you. This does seem to help during acclimation. And even then I still try to only work in the cages when the snake is in a hide box or under its substrate. These are snakes you want to leave along and ignore during acclimation, IMO.

I like the idea of the dry and most hides and also the paper substrate for monitoring feces. But I do need to point out that Gonyosoma seem to readily deficate on and in their hides boxes more so than other snakes.
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Current snakes:

0.0.1 Gonyosoma oxycephala - Java locale (green)

1.2 Gonyosoma oxycephala - Jave local (green)

2.2 Gonyosoma janseni - Seleyar locale (all black)

1.2 Gonyosoma janseni - Celebes locale (Black & Tan)

>>I suspect it's a myriad of things that lead to what we witness in captivity. One idea that is hard for me to ignore is that there is some sort of facultative response to environmental conditions. There are enough observations of Gonyosoma to know that they can lay eggs early or late in the gestation process and that they can lay eggs in a variety of conditions.
>>
>>The areas these snakes come from have widely dramatic shifts in climate, water levels, etc. It could be that during rainy periods, for example, these snakes lay softer eggs that the female has not gestated as long. This is supported a bit by captive observations of females kept in rain chambers who lay their eggs in solid clumps around upper tree branches in their cages.
>>
>>Conversely, in dryer times, females may be conditioned to gestate their eggs a bit longer and produce thicker eggs that are less sensitive to drying out. This is supported in part by the majority of captive females who lay heavily calcified eggs in more terrestrial situations.
>>
>>From what I have gathered, I suspect these changes occur a bit too quickly in captive females for diet to be the significant contributor. Some sort of facultative response seems to be a better fit.

Thankyou for this insight, very interesting and makes perfect sense.

Sue x
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The Ratsnake Foundation Online Society