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Feeding issue

TacomaUte Feb 17, 2007 09:08 PM

I've got a young Dumeril's that absolutely inhales pinky or fuzzy rats the second I put them in front of him, but he wont touch small mice.

My question is, is this likely just a preference of rats over mice or do you think he is afraid of something full grown with open eyes and teeth, even though the mice are smaller than the fuzzy rats he eats?
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0.1 Hog Island/Argentine Boa (Fluffy)
0.0.1 Ball Python (Grumpy)
0.1 Gopher Snake (Katrina)
1.0 Leucistic Texas Rat Snake (Snowy)
1.0 Mexican Milksnake (Tiny)
1.1 Kenyan Sand Boas (Ken & Pat)
0.1 Black Milksnake (Jumpy)
0.1 Variable Kingsnake (Dinner)
1.0 Dumerils Boa (Sunny)

Replies (11)

reptilicus81 Feb 18, 2007 04:23 PM

You are lucky....don't start him on mice, they are a waste of time for dumeril's. You don't want to end up with a 6 foot snake with a mouse only preference. I have a 5 footer who was fed chicks by a previous owner, and will not eat a rodent. It takes quite a few chicks to make a snake that size happy!
-----
Thanks,
Amy
www.myboids.4t.com
----
1.14 Normal ball pythons
1.0 Pastel ball pythons
0.0.1 Sinaloan Milk Snake
0.0.1 Plains Garter
0.1 Normal Kenyan Sand Boa
2.0 Anery Kenyan Sand Boa
1.0 Mid-Baja Rosy Boa
0.1 Leucistic Texas Rat
1.2 Dumeril's Boa
My list is too long, so I'll stop here!

amarilrose Feb 19, 2007 09:54 AM

I agree with Amy. Much better that your snake be picky and prefer rats, than that he get a taste for mice.

Another reason this is good for you is that (my theory anyway) with a young rat the prey item has more nutritive value for your snake than an equivalent weight in mice. My reasoning in saying this is that if you were to feed mice, you would be feeding older animals that have a full coat of hair, and fully ossified long bones (adult skeletal structure) versus softer bones (more cartilage) that are not finished growing in a young rat, which may be more digestible.

My sister-in-law argues with me on this that perhaps the undigestible portion of the rodent may be beneficial to the snake's digestive tract. She may well have a point, which is why I bother to put that out there, and I can't claim to have all the answers.

I do understand the negatives of feeding rats: availability, and mostly that if you don't breed your own, or buy frozen in bulk, they are more expensive.

In the long run though, it is much better that your snake likes rats than mice.

Good luck to you!

~Rebecca
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0.1 Dumeril's Boa '04 (Courtney)
1.2 Ball Pythons
[1.0 '05 Orange Hypo (Specter)]
[0.1 '05 Het Orange Hypo (Sylvia)]
[0.1 '03 Normal (Sue)]
0.2 American Pit Bull Terriers (40lb darling lap dogs:Brandy&Mara)

TacomaUte Feb 19, 2007 12:42 PM

Thanks for the replies! I'll stick with the rats.

I'm still curious though, do you think it's a simple taste preference? or do you think he may be afraid of the mice due to the fact that they are adults and pose a danger (as opposed to a harmless pinky or fuzzy rat)?
-----
0.1 Hog Island/Argentine Boa (Fluffy)
0.0.1 Ball Python (Grumpy)
0.1 Gopher Snake (Katrina)
1.0 Leucistic Texas Rat Snake (Snowy)
1.0 Mexican Milksnake (Tiny)
1.1 Kenyan Sand Boas (Ken & Pat)
0.1 Black Milksnake (Jumpy)
0.1 Variable Kingsnake (Dinner)
1.0 Dumerils Boa (Sunny)

amarilrose Feb 19, 2007 02:16 PM

My best guess would be that it is a smell preference.

If you are feeding live prey in either instance, the movement of the adult mice may also be scary to your Dum... but it would be better for you and your snake to get into the habit of feeding prekilled or thawed prey that cannot hurt him. While you are feeding pinkies and fuzzies, it really doesn't matter except for the impact on availability (usually harder to get them live when you need them).

hope that helps

~Rebecca
-----
0.1 Dumeril's Boa '04 (Courtney)
1.2 Ball Pythons
[1.0 '05 Orange Hypo (Specter)]
[0.1 '05 Het Orange Hypo (Sylvia)]
[0.1 '03 Normal (Sue)]
0.2 American Pit Bull Terriers (40lb darling lap dogs:Brandy&Mara)

KenRoshak Feb 20, 2007 12:40 PM

The chart at the posted link compares protein, fats etc of prey items. The results do indicate rats have more crude protein and fat than mice of the same size. Take that to your sister-in-law

And I agree with the other posters, much better for your Dum to like rats than mice. Mine was a very picky eater as a youngster and I finally found a food item he never refuses, bunnys. But it's difficult to find them the size he needs though I did locate a source in PA that has been wonderful.

Also, use this time to switch him to thawed rats so as the prey size gets larger they won't pose a threat to your snake and it's more humane for the rat too
Nutrition of whole prey

-----
Ken Roshak
BlackSwampSerpents@toast.net

amarilrose Feb 20, 2007 03:13 PM

THAT IS SO AWESOME!!! I'm such a nerd about this stuff, I kinda can't believe I didn't find that before myself!

I'm going to show this to my Meat Science professor!! (I'm a college student majoring in Food Animal Science) I've been bugging him with questions about meat quality in animals as it may be affected by euthanasia methods (ie CO2), so he has gotten familiar with my interests. Thank you so much for the reference!

~Rebecca
-----
0.1 Dumeril's Boa '04 (Courtney)
1.2 Ball Pythons
[1.0 '05 Orange Hypo (Specter)]
[0.1 '05 Het Orange Hypo (Sylvia)]
[0.1 '03 Normal (Sue)]
0.2 American Pit Bull Terriers (40lb darling lap dogs:Brandy&Mara)

reptilicus81 Feb 20, 2007 07:15 PM

Where are you going to school at (if you don't mind me asking)? I am an EIU alumni! I loved their science program, but we didn't have an animal science curriculum. The herp prof. there was fabulous!
-----
Thanks,
Amy
www.myboids.4t.com
----
1.14 Normal ball pythons
1.0 Pastel ball pythons
0.0.1 Sinaloan Milk Snake
0.0.1 Plains Garter
0.1 Normal Kenyan Sand Boa
2.0 Anery Kenyan Sand Boa
1.0 Mid-Baja Rosy Boa
0.1 Leucistic Texas Rat
1.2 Dumeril's Boa
My list is too long, so I'll stop here!

amarilrose Feb 21, 2007 10:15 AM

I'm in my junior year at UIUC. We have a great Animal Science program, but NO herpetologists. The main focus here is livestock, with a fair program in companion animals. Reptiles are seen as an offshoot of companion animals, and really only get mentioned in one or two courses. The teachers responsible for these courses have assured me that they do such a brief introduction to reptile keeping that I wouldn't be able to learn anything new from these courses... unless I really want to know way too much about cats. Ha!

So, that's part of why I have gone with my major in Food Animal Science - I don't really find the companion animal program very intriguing here, and I get to analyze genetic merit on the livestock animals.

Take care,

~Rebecca
-----
0.1 Dumeril's Boa '04 (Courtney)
1.2 Ball Pythons
[1.0 '05 Orange Hypo (Specter)]
[0.1 '05 Het Orange Hypo (Sylvia)]
[0.1 '03 Normal (Sue)]
0.2 American Pit Bull Terriers (40lb darling lap dogs:Brandy&Mara)

KenRoshak Feb 20, 2007 11:09 PM

Yeah I like all that "scientific stuff" too Hmmmm...meat affected by CO2??? Yeah, provide more info as I'd be interested. I've thought about switching to CO2 for dispatching my rats as currently I use the "whack a rat" method.
-----
Ken Roshak
BlackSwampSerpents@toast.net

amarilrose Feb 21, 2007 10:00 AM

Well, from what I can tell, there is no difference in quality between the 'whack a rat' method and CO2.

Initially, I had been concerned that CO2 euthanasia used for feeders could be unhealthy for the animals consuming them. Off the top of my head, I think the way CO2 kills is by not only preventing the proper amount of O2 into the tissues, but also by preventing cells from filtering out toxic by-products of normal metabolism. Like I said, this is all off the top of my head, and as I write it, it isn't sounding quite right. Anyhow, my concern was that the rodent killed by CO2 might have a bad effect on the snake that would consume it.

To back this up, about a year ago a friend of mine notified me that the Ball Python I had given her in 2003 as a 5-year-old had died. He had been the picture of health before that, and she wasn't new to snake keeping. She suspected the culprit to have been a "bad rat," since he had eaten not too long before his death. We're still baffled by that one. Ball Pythons should live well into their 20's or better without any fuss.

Anyhow, I started asking my professor in Meat Science about any meat quality effects from CO2 euthanasia. I was actually shocked to find out that this method had in fact been used in many places to euthanize livestock meant for human consumption. With that being the case, there are several studies available about the effects of this euthanasia method on meat quality... which I have been too stinkin' busy to look up and read. Apparently the only reason this method fell out of favor with meat packing plants is that it is not efficient enough for the vast numbers of animals that get processed on a daily basis.

What I definitely learned from my Meat Science course though is that the amount of time between the death of the animal and the tissues being cooled to around 40 degrees Fahrenheit is the biggest factor affecting overall quality (that is of course aside from the initial health of the animal in question before euthanasia).

How I apply that to what I do with my snakes is just to make sure that I pay very close attention to how long I leave any pre-killed prey sit with a snake before I freeze it if the snake isn't going to eat it - if I can, I set the limit at around 20 minutes. Also, I pay a lot of attention to how long I spend thawing prey. There have been some very interesting threads in the Ball Python forum on thawing methods... and while I don't think my thawing method is the best out there, I know it is better than some others. I put the prey item in a sealed zip top bag and submerge the bag in hot tap water for about 20 minutes at a time, which does vary with the size of the prey. This seems to work pretty well, and the thawed prey definitely smells better when I do this than when I get tied up doing something else and forget I've left something thawing... grrr!

Either way, if you can minimize the amount of time that the dead thing sits around at warm temperatures, you can maximize its nutritive value to what you are trying to feed.

~Rebecca
-----
0.1 Dumeril's Boa '04 (Courtney)
1.2 Ball Pythons
[1.0 '05 Orange Hypo (Specter)]
[0.1 '05 Het Orange Hypo (Sylvia)]
[0.1 '03 Normal (Sue)]
0.2 American Pit Bull Terriers (40lb darling lap dogs:Brandy&Mara)

KenRoshak Feb 21, 2007 09:37 PM

Thanks for the info Rebecca. You bring up some interesting topics for discussion. Concerning thawing methods I'm wondering how everyone treats this detail.

For me, I dispatch the rat and freeze it immediately. I mark the bad with a month/year and rotate my stock so I'm always feeding the oldest rodents. Usually, I'm on a six month rotation. I put the rodents into a ziplock bag then wrap with several layers of newspaper to keep freezer burn to a minimum.

When I thaw I actually put the frozen rats into a bucket of very warm water for about 20-30 minutes. For pinks, fuzzies, weaned this time is shorter. After I make certain the rodent is thawed, inside and out, I wring out the excess water, towel dry and feed it.

And because I use aspen bedding in all my tanks I remove each snake to it's own plastic feeding tub, feed them, then return them to their enclosures. It's time consuming but it's worked for me.
-----
Ken Roshak
BlackSwampSerpents@toast.net

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