Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I guess the way I look at it is two steps forward, one stepback. There have been a pretty good number of ratsnake phylogeny studies done in the last thirty years. Starting with the protein comparisons and moving down to the various DNA (mt and nuclear) comparisons. My perception is that overall progress is being made. Whereas some conjectures are supported by low probablilities, others are much more solid.

So for example, whereas we can probably argue till the cows come home about whether vulpina is more closely related to Pituophis or obsoleta, you no longer hear anybody trying to mix Coelognathus or Gonyosoma with Elaphe. The strongly supported arrangements are convincing to the various researchers and even make sense to laymen (such as me).

Personally, I'm not ready to lump the ratsnakes under Pituophis yet. I think that story has a few more chapters. But I wouldn't be surprised if after alot more study is done that several of the genera currently in existence disappear and are replaced with a new arrangement.

So to re-iterate. If the confidence levels are >95% then I'll adopt something (e.g. mandarina and conspicillata are first cousins) but if the evidence is more tenuous then I'll use my own judgement and wait for a better study to emerge.
Regards
John

Two steps forward and one step back seems to be a good analogy.....the day I get a time-machine, I'll know for sure I'm sure the interpretation of molecular data will become more of a true science in time, but for now, it seems that a lot of the data can be used any way you wish......without complete data......chimerism.

I suppose it's easy to make fun of researchers who throw natural history to the side, when it isn't agreeable with a molecular barcode, but hey, something has to be published, in a timely manner, otherwise the cv would suffer........shrug

Shane
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Lifelist

academic competition has to account for some haste in getting a paper published. But that's just like my job too. When my boss wants something ASAP I always remind him of the engineer's motto:

"Fast, Cheap, Good. Pick two".

Unfortunately "fast" is usually one of the two he picks. And unless I can talk some sense into him "cheap" is usually the other ingredient.

In Academia I think cheap is a given and until you're tenured I guess fast takes precedence over good.

How're your herp activites going this spring? We finally had some decent weather here. The frogs are calling outside my house and the garters are finally showing up.

Regards
John

>>Two steps forward and one step back seems to be a good analogy.....the day I get a time-machine, I'll know for sure I'm sure the interpretation of molecular data will become more of a true science in time, but for now, it seems that a lot of the data can be used any way you wish......without complete data......chimerism.
>>
>>I suppose it's easy to make fun of researchers who throw natural history to the side, when it isn't agreeable with a molecular barcode, but hey, something has to be published, in a timely manner, otherwise the cv would suffer........shrug
>>
>>Shane
>>-----
>>Lifelist

John, my spring has been fairly decent.......not a lot of herping, but I found some new stuff in new areas (heard my first chrysoscelis tonight.....I was wondering if they were present among the many versicolor). Right now, I'm in the extended process of preparing for the eastern hemisphere (less so with my formal studies). My wife has given me a "have fun" blessing, so as is, I'm going to have plenty of time to avoid socializing, and A LOT of time to herp. After I knock out some quadrivirgata variation photos, I envision many morning, streamside hikes in appropriate conspic habitat......at worst, with that much time, I should learn a thing or two....well, at least I hope so.

My mighty stallion for most of the ventures will be an old Honda scooter, so that should give any and all passing motorists a great laugh......I'm wondering exactly how fast it will go, with a 265# load.......I may have to push it up the steeper grades

I also need to find a living example of this species:

Seems odd that my current tally is three conspics and only one climac? So much to be learned!

I'll give ya a ring when I get back.....we should have plenty to talk about then.

Take care,

Shane
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Lifelist

Shane:
It should be fun.

What is that snake you've got there?

John

John, that's a juvie climac.....I'd forgotten that I took a pic of it......hopefully I'll find a live one this year.

Shane
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Lifelist

Nice looking critter. Yes you'll enjoy a live one this year even better.
Regards
John

Hey, guys. Sorry for the late arrival, but it's been so hectic here lately, I haven't had time to log on.

I've seen or heard half doz. frog species, couple turtle sps, Eastern garters, northern water sns, brown sn, and a n. ringneck, so far, in n. MI. The weather is getting better, as it's in the 60's already this morning. Looking for my first sm. green sn. of the year.

As far as Burbrink and the taxonomy goes, here's my thoughts in brief. I think the various Pituophis species are closely related to the ratsnakes, esp. Pantherophis/Elaphe. I don't think Pantherophis sps should be included in Pituophis at this time, however. ASAMOF, I'm not even sure how closely related all the Pituophis sps are to each other. Regardless of the molecular evidence, it seems to me that Pantherophis sps are easily separated from Pituophis sps, which should be enough to put them in a different genus. I do think we should start thinking of the various Pituophis sps as ratsnakes, however.

It should be interesting to see how the scientific community takes these new proposals. Maybe CNAH will accept them right away. Time will tell.

More later...Terry

>>How're your herp activites going this spring? We finally had some decent weather here. The frogs are calling outside my house and the garters are finally showing up.
>>
>>Regards
>>John
>>
>>
>>>>Two steps forward and one step back seems to be a good analogy.....the day I get a time-machine, I'll know for sure I'm sure the interpretation of molecular data will become more of a true science in time, but for now, it seems that a lot of the data can be used any way you wish......without complete data......chimerism.
>>>>
>>>>I suppose it's easy to make fun of researchers who throw natural history to the side, when it isn't agreeable with a molecular barcode, but hey, something has to be published, in a timely manner, otherwise the cv would suffer........shrug
>>>>
>>>>Shane
>>>>-----
>>>>Lifelist