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Pyramiding myths...

Safaritom Apr 27, 2007 11:49 AM

For those that are interested in this topic

.. here is my personal opinion. About me first off.. I am a wildlife Naturalist located in Sarasota FL. I have worked as a zookeeper for many years. I have kept and bred numerous reptiles since I was maybe 7 or 8. I have a keen interest in veterinary science as well as emergency medicine.

Now , I dont buy into the hype that pyramding is such a bad thing. Even though so many fanatics swear it is poor husbandry that a tortoise may become pyramided.
There are ill tortoises that have piss poo husbandry- diet specifically that DO have pyramiding.. But there are WAY to many good keepers with sulcatas that have pyramided.
Tortoises in the wild are survivors. They forage for food and when there isnt a constant source they eat a variety in order to survive. Tortoises have evolved as a surviving species. They have the ability to survive droughts and famines unlike many mammals and various other higher metabolism based reptiles. Now , with this understanding... are tortises well fed in the wild? Sulcatas specifically... Maybe , maybe not. Their growth rate is much slower in the wild as are all captive bred/raised reptiles.
Wild tortoises DO NOT have access to the diet we are able to provide. I am willing to bet my entire collection that if a wild tortoise had the access to constant fresh food and water 24-7 that he would develop pyramiding. A result of an abundance of food. However tortoises do not have an abundance of food in the wild, or at least not in most cases. They must search and forage for food.

Now for a fact. I have 2 Sulcatas. Both almost 8 yrs old. Purchased together, same time .. same place...the same day they cracked the egg shell. They have grown up side my side. Same enclosure.. same everything. However.. one is pyramided and one isnt as pyramided. They have never been fed protien. Their diet has consistantly been grass, papaya, grass, melon, grass, squash, grass and papaya. and maybe a strawberry or 2. They have a spacious 30x30 outdoor enclosure with 3 wild grasses grwoing abundantly. Its a perfect habitat. the grass grows faster than they can eat it.
So what caused this pyramiding ? and is this bad ?
1. The cause? I would say the cause of the pyramiding is from excellent habitat with an abundance of fresh grass and vegetables.
2. Is this bad? No , Not at all. Prove me wrong .. Looking directly at the pyramids gives a key into why they may be their. Thermo regulation. Raised scutes like those on an aligator or crocodile. these scutes are used to capture the heat and harness its energy so that the animals metabolism will remain at a higher pace. Local temperature and other climate influences could all play a role in scute development.

There are animals with pyramiding that are in poor health. Ive seen Metabolic Bone Disease in many tortoises with pyramiding. This "diseased pyramiding" is very obvious. Uneven shell structure, unever scutes , underdeveloped leg spurrs , etc ..

Pyramiding in my opinion , and i am sticking to it Is not a bad thing given good husbandry , no matter what the fanatics say.
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Safari Tom
See'em Touch'em Save'em
www.SafariTom.com

Replies (9)

PHRatz Apr 27, 2007 01:36 PM

Ok..
Is it safe to assume that someone has argued with you about this in the past?
Far be it from me to argue, I'm not going to do that.

Our girl is/was horribly pyramided when we got her. We have no way of knowing where she came from but since her original owner didn't care about her & threw her away like garbage out in the middle of nowhere.. I think it's safe to assume she was NOT given any proper care prior to that. Hence major pyramiding & MBD with extremely weak muscles. That was 5 years ago, she has changed A LOT in 5 years.
Proper diet has caused her new growth to be more normal & the appearance of the pyramids has lessened. When they ARE getting a proper diet, along with proper hydration.. then if they pyramid some- I don't know what you could do about it.

You're not the first person I've run across who's had 2 turtles or tortoises, raised exactly the same way then one pyramided & the other didn't. I don't think anyone can explain that just yet because so far nobody completely understands what causes pyramiding.
You do the best you can & ya know, what else can you do?
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PHRatz

safaritom Apr 27, 2007 01:55 PM

Phratz

great response ... I agree with you ... do the best you can ...

Ill post pics of them tonite ...
-----
Safari Tom
See'em Touch'em Save'em
www.SafariTom.com

PHRatz Apr 28, 2007 10:12 AM

>>Phratz
>>
>> great response ... I agree with you ... do the best you can ...
>>
>>Ill post pics of them tonite ...
>>-----

Great!!! I'd love to see pictures.
-----
PHRatz

nybuckeye Apr 29, 2007 05:59 PM

Im not trying to argue with you or oppose your rant. Pyrimiding is purely cosmetic, but if its not caused by poor (maybe not poor, but not ideal) husbandry, then why wont you ever see a sulcata in the wild that has pyrimiding?

safaritom Apr 30, 2007 08:40 AM

I appreciate you question.. With my undertsanding and theory it would be due to the lack of abundant and varied food sources. In the wild Sulcatas do not have the 24-7 abundance of foods available. They must actively forage for food, eating whatever is available.

Does that make sense to you ?
-----
Safari Tom
See'em Touch'em Save'em
www.SafariTom.com

nybuckeye Apr 30, 2007 03:24 PM

Not really. The only thing over eating would result in is obesity, which is very commen in captive torts around the globe, it is seen quite often in the world of veterinary medicine. There are sulcatas in the wild that live in rich grasslands just below the extremely arid sub-sahara region that eat very well. Pyrimiding is absent in wild populations of sulcatas. Some other types of torts have been found with pyrimiding in the wild, but they are mostly star variations. I would also have to disagree that pyrimiding serves for thermoregulation purposes. If this was so then it would be seen in the wild.

I was wondering what state you raise your torts in? Also, I have two sulcatas that I have raised from hatchling in the exact same conditions, fed same diet, yet one has slight pyrimiding, and the other has a perfect shell... The cause is ambiguous, veterinarians, along with long time herpers dont have an answer.

safaritom Apr 30, 2007 03:34 PM

I live in Florida , Sarasota to be exact

I guess we may never know the answer to pyramiding until some biologists decide to do extensive long term studies..

Thanks for the response though

Tom
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Safari Tom
See'em Touch'em Save'em
www.SafariTom.com

preptiles May 17, 2007 02:53 AM

hello
richard fife covers this topic in his new leopard tortoise book
lack of humidity seems to be my number one guess
i have had the same experiences with one being smooth and one having raised scutes.
But in the outdoor enclosure they did not stay in the same spots
the smooth one always hid under the opuntia cactus bush
It was always moist under the bush but where i live in southern ca it gets really hot for most of the year
she turned out perfectly smooth
the other was always out and about I never saw him in a high moisture hiding spot usually burrowed in the straw hut he developed some raised scutes
these tortoises as babies stay in burrows for most of the first 2 years in the wild
i have never seen it affect a tortoises health having raised scutes
burrows are warm with high humidity
we are now hatching tortoises naturally outdoors in our enclosures and leaving them outside from birth in covered enclosures
only time will tell
thanks
jeff
planet reptiles

elegans May 17, 2007 07:07 AM

Hello!
In my opinion a lack of appropriate food and humidity, no access to UVB, no access to water cause pyramiding in tortoises.
No fruits should be given even one time a year!!! It is unnatural food definitely and especially for genus Testudo and species like sulcata, elegans, radiata and more. In case of sulcata even dandelion seems to be too much energetic food. The best food is grass hay. Tortoises grow smooth outdoor, but we must remember not to give them fruits and protein which for instance meat contains.

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