Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I was wondering if anyone could give a positive id on this snake. I do not know the origins of it other than it was abandoned in a residence in Florida. Upon looking at its body structure and scalation it looks elapid. My gut says psuedonaja or psuedechis but I am not sure not having maintained any of the "Browns". The really odd thing is that it has a very faint pattern on the back of the neck sort of like a monocle.

The pictures aren't the best but hopefully you can get an idea.

And before you get ideas the black mice it's feeding on were frozen thawed and the one live one, the white one, it constricted. If it is a colubrid I have no idea what it is.

Thanks in advance

Kevin

I don´t know what species it is but the thing that has made me confused is that you think it is an Elapid but later on in your message you also mention that he constricted a mouse and it could also be an colubrid..
Well I have to ask this.....how could you have even buy it when your not even sure if the snake is venomous or not?..Where you got the snake from , how did he sell it?? venomous or not??

When the snake feeds most of the time you can peek inside his mouth from a distance and woçuld be able to see if there are fangs present or not.have you done this??

How do you handle the snake at the moment??

Niek,

He said the snake was left abandoned in a residence in Florida, not that he bought it without knowing whether or not it was venomous. Had that been the case, then yes, by all means jump his rear.

Kevin,

It definitely appears to be some sort of Aussie/PNG elapid to me, though my word is far from gold. I've never kept any of the browns myself, but I'd have to agree with the Pseudonaja or Pseudechis assumption. By all means, be careful! Any individual out of either genus will put you 6' under relatively easily!
-----
Chance Duncan
www.rivervalleyexotics.com

As I said in my previous post I did not purchase it.

I wish I could post more info but that is about all I have. I am by far not a novice when it comes to snakes and especially venomous although I have not maintained any of the Australian/New Guinea elapids but have kept cobras.

The snake was abandoned in a residence in Central Florida. I do not know who the previous resident/owner is.

When I first looked at it it reminded me of cobra / elapid morphology. Heck even the faint monocle like pattern looks weird on the neck although it does not have hood structure.

It fed readily on frozen thawed mice, the black ones in the first pictures in it's original aquarium it was found in. I attempted to get a look inside the mouth as it went to swallow the last bit of mouse and would take a gapping yawn. It never did. It eats like a milksnake (Lampropeltis) very closed mouthed.

The next thought was to feed it live prey to see if it causes an envenomating bite. It contricted the prey so I was unable to tell if it succombed to venom or contriction.

I look at it and I see elapid, most likely psuedonaja or psuedechis. My concern, among many, is that this is not a "common" kept venomous species if it is one of the brown snakes. So how did this person get it, especially without a permit (actually I can imagine how unfortunately)? Most first time venomous keepers in our area would start off by having one of the indigenous species.

I was called in to identify the snake and this is where we are at now. I was hoping someone else may have more experience with the "browns" to id it as I want to be 100% sure of its species as opposed to "I think it is".

Thank you for any assitance you can give.

If anyone is wondering why I don't just examine the mouth to rule this out...............Once again I stress because I believe it is a brown. I am trying to do this the safest way possible.

on this post of you I can only say your damn right to do it the safest way possible!!!. don´t want to imagine how it "feels" when got bitten by a species and not knowing what it is..!! kinda hard to get AV then wouldn´t it :s

oeps my fault!!! didn´t read the post that well I guess.. sorry if i have offended you in any way

Hi Kevin,

I sent this link to a mate of mine in AU to have a look at...this is his response below. Can you get any clearer pics for him?

Gday,
Anja without actually being able to personally handle the snake for scalation count purposes it 99.99% pretty much has to be within the Pseudonaja family??
The head structure, scalation and constriction of the prey item is spot on for the classic "Pseudonaja" with the most common form being the "textilis", but variations thru to Pseudonaja nuchalis (Western Brown)
could be probable as the 'western' can have the collared appearance carried throughout the entire life-cycle..

Hope helps thanks again
-----
Anja Buffalo
Wisconsin Reptiles Site
Crotalus & Company
Free PC Inspection

well that is some info that is usefull.. If it is indeed an Pseudonaja species then I think you are one lucky bastard to have gotten this species the way you did.. I can´t understand the person who left the snake where you got it from!!!!..On the other hand you are also a bit screwed.. I don´t know if you can get AV for this species but here in europe it´s pretty hard to get australian AV.

Still it is one stunning snake that I wouldn´t mind to get into my collection they way you did

keep yourself save!!!!don´t get bitten!!!

cheers niek

Thanks alot NajaAnja!. I hated to think I was right but I just couldn't get over the feeling that it could only be this.

And believe me the whole reason I haven't examined the mouth is for the plain fact that I thought it was a "brown" and didn't want to take an unnecessary risk. I mean handling cobras is one thing but these are in a group all of their own.

I will try again to take some better pictures of it to help the id and unfortunately the aquarium it was found it was filthy and had remnant shedding but it was cleaned and disposed of by shortly after I moved it to a locked caging system by another person trying to clean the mess.

I will post more later.

Hi Kevin

Most of my Pseudonaja do constrict their food, it's a common trait for the species.

It looks very much like a Pseudonaja but unless I keyed it out I can't say 100%. I don't know if you are able to do a scale count but I've included Cogger's key for Pseudonaja below. Hope this helps.

This genus is charicterised by the possession of smooth scales in 17-21 rows at mid-body; nasal and preocular scales in contact; suboculars absent; anal divided; subcaudals divided, 35 or more; 7-12 solid maxillary teeth following the fang.

1. Scales in 17 or 19 rows...............................go to 2

Scales usually in 21 rows..................Pseudonaja guttata

2. Ventrals more than 175................................go to 3

Ventrals fewer than 175....................Pseudonaja modesta

3. Scales in 17 or 19 rows; if in 17 rows, adults banded or with
at least a few dark scales on the neck; young, if banded,
usually with narrow irregular cross-bands.............go to 5

4. Nasal not or only partially divided, usually broadly
contracting the preocular; inside of mouth flesh colored.....
..........................................Pseudonaja textilis

Nasal completely divided, uaually not or in only point contact
with the preocular; inside of mouth black..Pseudonaja ingrami

5. Scales normally in 17, sometimes in 19 rows; rostral large and
strap-like, higher than broad and conspicuouswhen viewed from
above.....................................Pseudonaja nuchalis

Scales normally 19 rows; rostral normal, about as broad as
high, and scarcely visible from above.......Psuedonaja affinis

It does look like a Pseudonaja, and constriction is normal in these. Try to get a photo of the side of the head that allows one to see the scales (through glass!), Pseudonaja have some specific features in their head scalation that makes them relatively easy to identify (lack of loreal and temporolabial).

Cheers,

WW
-----
WW Home

The close-up side view of the head shown in the "Snakes - What kind?" forum clearly shows a loreal scale, so it's not an elapid. Don't know what it actually is, but definitely not an elapid.

Cheers,

WW
-----
WW Home

Kevin did you ever get a positive ID on this snake?
-----
Anja Buffalo
Crotalus & Company
Venom-Center
Wisconsin Reptiles Site
Free PC Inspection