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Amazon tree boas mixed with darts?

loconorc Jul 15, 2007 10:52 AM

This is my exact post from the Tree Boa Forum, but I thought I might get different (and quicker) responses, and possibly more knowledgeable ones. Here goes:

I have read the new article in the September 07 REPTILES magazine, and there is a great article on a naturalistic setup. It has all the things you would expect in a dart frog vivarium, but it also had a rough green snake in it. I know they are mainly insect eaters. The enclosure was 540 gallons, had a pond, stream, waterfall, small ficus, small fish, etc. If I were to do this myself, would an ATB be acceptable as an inhabitant? Would they chow down on any dart frogs, tree frogs, or lizards in it? From my limited tree boa knowledge, ATB's are normally bird eaters. (if thats wrong tell me!) So would they ignore the little frogs, or would I lose several 100 dollar frogs? If they are sufficiently fed, kept with hides, and plenty of space would it be a problem? In the very far off eventuality I own my own house, I would like a large, naturalistic rainforest viviarium as a showpeice in the living room. I would LOVE to replace a boa with day geckos, rhacs, or some other peaceful inhabitant, but just for accuracy, I would like to keep darts with animals and plants native to their region. Or at least the same region with similar needs. Of course all would be CB, quarentied, and vet checked, and before attempting any species mixing, I would have a few years experience with all species i ndividually. Seems I already got that down with neon tetras! :D

Sorry for the long post, but this is one of my herp dreams I've always wanted to try! I hope my post wasnt too confusing! lol

Ryan

Replies (13)

Slaytonp Jul 15, 2007 01:00 PM

Even if the Amazon tree boas specialize in birds, unless you have a really vast space, such as a large virtual rain forest conservatory or greenhouse, I think it is likely that you would encounter some problems with territory and stress with any of the dart frogs I can think of. It would be very difficult to monitor them in a large space.

Of course you would want to get some experience with raising the dart frogs of choice separately before you invest in something that costly. You will find that most dart species will generally utilize all of the space that most of us are able to give them in a "living room hobby" situation. My largest tank is 180 gallons, and they don't neglect an inch of it. I know nothing about Amazon tree boas and their territorial habits, so this is just from the dart frog perspective, from my own hobby experiences with a few of the species.

You might also want to get the direct opinions of some of the people who post about mixed habitats. The majority of these seem to be in Europe, especially the Netherlands/Holland. I've lost track of the specific web sites, but if I come across any, I will let you know.
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Patty
Pahsimeroi, Idaho

D. auratus blue, auratus Ancon Hill, galactonotus orange, galactonotus yellow, fantasticus, reticulatus, imitator, castaneoticus, azureus, pumilio Bastimentos. P. lugubris, vittatus, terribilis mint green, terribilis orange.

Slaytonp Jul 15, 2007 01:27 PM

Doyle's Dart Den is a great website with a lot of links and information, where you may find more information on large mixed habitats.
Doyle's Dart Den

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Patty
Pahsimeroi, Idaho

D. auratus blue, auratus Ancon Hill, galactonotus orange, galactonotus yellow, fantasticus, reticulatus, imitator, castaneoticus, azureus, pumilio Bastimentos. P. lugubris, vittatus, terribilis mint green, terribilis orange.

e&t Jul 16, 2007 12:23 PM

Don't do it man,

I have kept ATB's for a while, and I had a few hatchlings that wouldn't eat anything. I tried everything...or so I thought. I tried small birds, mice, bird scented mice, mouse scented birds, chicken, anoles, and quite a few other things. One day, I realized that I hadn't tried frogs. I caught a few green tree frogs in the woods, and the second the snakes saw them, they pigged out. That was the only thing that they would ever eat, despite my best efforts to switch them over to mice. Now,I'm in no way saying that I'm an experienced keeper, but based on my experience, I would say no to mixing ATB's and dart frogs...or any frogs. They are primarily bird eaters, but they are also very opportunistic feeders, and will usually eat what is available to them, but some individuals are strangely specialized to certain diets.

loconorc Jul 16, 2007 12:38 PM

Thanks for the reply. I recall REPTILES mag adressing a question similar to mine. But the person asked about a GTP instead. REPTILES suggested an ETB, until it gets big. I thought since ATB's stay sorta small ( at least slender) and they occupy a different area than the frogs, they wouldnt have a problem. If the viv is as big as the one in the article mentioned in the first post, would there be a problem? I would have a small tree of some sort, ficus or something, and several branches high above the floor for the boas. My dream viv would be somewhere like 8 feet wide, 8 feet tall, and maybe 4 feet deep. Also with a 30 gallon water area with small fish. If the boas are VERY well fed and far away from the frogs, would it still be a problem? Thanks!

e&t Jul 16, 2007 01:57 PM

I don't know, because ATB's prowl all over the place at night. It might work with that much space, but my ATB's seem to always have room for more in their bellies. That is a whole lot of space in a tank, and it might work if the tree boas never discovered the frogs in their tank, and they might not since dart frogs aren't really arboreal. You would probably need to make sure that there was no way for the frogs to get into the trees though, just in case. This really just seems like a matter of trial and error. Sorry I can't help more dude.

loconorc Jul 16, 2007 02:39 PM

Thanks again! Youre a big help! I have plenty of time to prepare for this by keeping each species individually, I'm only 14, 15 in a few weeks. I would only attempt this after college, owning my own house, a job... I know this type of setup would require $$$ in the thousands, and not to mention quie a lot of maintanence for misters, timers, lights, water, plants, feeding...

But some ATB questions I still have... How much humidity do they need? If its anywhere around what darts need, this might be possible. And how often to they go on the ground? Should they at all unless something is wrong? And since they get over 5 feet, would they even bother trying to eat itty bitty dart frogs, or even red eyed tree frogs? I still doubt this, especially if the snake is well fed. But I really dont know much about ATBs or darts yet.

Also for you dart keepers... would if I had a large millipede or orchid/flower praying mantis? Would they effect the darts in any way? From my limited knowledge, the mantis would stay on or near its resident flower and wouldnt bother with frogs anyway. And would they millipede get scared enough to secrete its poison, and wouldnt it just eat old poop and food scraps?

Do any of you have 'accents' in your vivs? Mushrooms, jungle starts, odd vines or the like? Any suggestions for accents would be helpful!

ONE LAST QUESTION lol. If I had a deep water area, say 30 gallons, with several fish like barbs, tetras, and corydoras, would it hurt the frogs? Should I place a peice of driftwood to prevent drowning?

e&t Jul 17, 2007 09:02 AM

Heh, that's weird. I'm 14 too. Well, I can't help you with all those questions, as I haven't kept darts yet, but I can help a little more with the ATB's. Their humidity needs to be pretty high, but I'm not sure about an actual number. I've got mine set up with coconut fiber as a substrate, pvc for branches, a few fake plants, and saran wrap over half of the top. I think they need around the same humidity as darts, but I'm not completely sure. Also, all my ATB's I have right now are yearlings, and they eat frogs viciously, but I'm not sure about adults. With that much space, they may never see the frogs. Then again, they could also smell them one day and eat them during the night. Also, in my experience ATB's prowl around the whole tank (including the floor) all night, every night. So even if during the day it looks like they stay in the trees all the time, it's a totally different story during the night. And about the large water area, yes, you should definitely put driftwood in it, a few pieces at least. Darts aren't exactly water frogs. Hypothetically, this idea could work, but then again, I wouldn't want to try it, because there are so many variables, and this is a lot of money that could be lost with a tank (enclosure is a better word I guess) of this size, so many animals in it, and all the other time, money, and care you would put into this. Personally, I would just keep these species seperate, as ATB's love frogs as meals, and if the frogs just happened to have sold as CB but were really WC then you would have lost a frog and a snake.

Slaytonp Jul 17, 2007 11:44 AM

A few more photos of the paludarium. The first and third photos are taken from the right hand pool and falls, and the center photo is of the left side falls and "lagoon." (There is the main pool to the right out of sight.)

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Patty
Pahsimeroi, Idaho

D. auratus blue, auratus Ancon Hill, galactonotus orange, galactonotus yellow, fantasticus, reticulatus, imitator, castaneoticus, azureus, pumilio Bastimentos. P. lugubris, vittatus, terribilis mint green, terribilis orange.

Slaytonp Jul 17, 2007 11:29 AM

Just an answer to a couple of your questions. I have not tried the large millipedes with darts, but there is a smaller type that occurs as a contaminant, and these don't appear to bother the darts at all. I rather like having them, as they feed on the organic matter and help recycle the frog wastes. The larger millipedes MIGHT invade the frogs' territory, which would annoy and stress them. I'd try it on a small scale first--something you could quickly remove at the first sign of a problem. The mantis would be very unlikely to bother the frogs, but I don't know whether a tropical pet species would be capable of eating one if it bumbled into it. Lot's of "don't knows" here.

As for fish, I do have some mixing experience here, and it's been quite positive. I have two paludariums that are a combination of aquarium/terrarium. The aquariums sections are relatively shallow, i.e. 10 inches down to 8 inches and heavily planted. The most successful fish have been the various tetras, such as X-ray, rummy nose, head and tail light, etc., some of which have lived for several years. (I can't seem to ever keep neons for long, however.) Various algae eaters do fairly well, and I have one Yoyo loach for snail control that has been around a long time. The water sections circulate over water falls, small "rapids" and in one tank, over a tree fern fiber drip wall. They have been low maintenance compared to a regular fish tank. In the larger tank, the water is circulated by an external canister filter, and in the smaller one, (135 gallons) with just an internal 600 Rio pump returning the water over the falls. All filtering in this tank is done by living Java moss in the narrow "rapids" fine filament algaes, and colonization of the tubing and surfaces of the water falls by biofilm of nitrifying bacteria. In nine years, I have never done a complete cleaning or water change, although there are frequent partial changes and replacement from some leakage via the water falls. It actually does work extremely well over all.

You should have an easy egress to land such as a submerged log, water to land for frogs that may fall in by accident. While they are quite capable of swimming, they do a kind of dash to the nearest surface, and really aren't very good at it. In a relatively shallow water ways, i.e. the 10 inches as mine are, many of the aquatic plants will have leaves floating on the surface, and some frogs will take advantage of these to hop around on. (My D. galactonotus are in the water on top of the leaves frequently.)

As an aside, someone stated that dart frogs aren't arboreal. While there are decidedly arboreal species, even the so-called terrestrial species may climb several feet if given the opportunity. So there's no guarantee a snake/dart frog path will not cross, even as high as 8 feet upward.

All in all, your project sounds like it will be really fun to plan and do, even if you have to alter some of your mixing ideas as you learn more along the way.

One of the first things you want to do is get rich!

Here's a couple of photos of the galactonotus playing in the "river run" part of the aquarium, and also climbing the glass after a "swim."

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Patty
Pahsimeroi, Idaho

D. auratus blue, auratus Ancon Hill, galactonotus orange, galactonotus yellow, fantasticus, reticulatus, imitator, castaneoticus, azureus, pumilio Bastimentos. P. lugubris, vittatus, terribilis mint green, terribilis orange.

e&t Jul 17, 2007 02:20 PM

As for the thing I said about them not being arboreal:

Like I said, I haven't got to keep darts yet, so sorry about the confusion.

Slaytonp Jul 17, 2007 11:49 PM

That's no great error e&t. Dart frogs don't always follow the rules and categories we put them in, and when we compare our limited habitats to a vast rain forest habitat, "terrestrial vs arboreal" in our set-ups loses distinction. You were also probably right in a sense. I don't know of any that are found exclusively in the highest reaches of a forest canopy.
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Patty
Pahsimeroi, Idaho

D. auratus blue, auratus Ancon Hill, galactonotus orange, galactonotus yellow, fantasticus, reticulatus, imitator, castaneoticus, azureus, pumilio Bastimentos. P. lugubris, vittatus, terribilis mint green, terribilis orange.

e&t Jul 18, 2007 12:51 PM

Ok, that's good. Their toe pads are kinda deceptive. I just assumed that since they had the thich toepads and not flatened ones that they couldn't climb. Heh, that pic of the galactonicus climbing the glass changed my mind. That looks kinda weird.

pseudosilence Jul 21, 2007 01:24 AM

I've had no problems keeping fish with darts as long as the water basin is large and the number of fish kept to a minimum. Darts arent swimmers by nature and some are more inclined to drown than others; make sure they have ample room to play, and foot holds if they fall in the pool. I have a large 300gal. with a 50gal pond. I only have 2 splashing tetras, 2 agassizi cichlids, 4 otocinclus, and 12 endlers guppies. Waterboatmen, snails, amphipods and planariums act as janitors. I have a sump under the tank which takes care of most of the nitrification. Along with my auratus I have gonotodes, anolis distichus, storeria decayi, clown tree frogs and a small amazon tree boa; the amazon tree boa ate my red eyes his first night but doest have anymore interest in cold blooded prey now that he's bigger; hatchling tree boas will eat frogs and lizards so be cautious. the boa has coused no problems in the last six months but he does make kind of a mess every two weeks. The fish and frogs have co-existed for the past four years without problems. 10% waterchanges every week.

Consider everything, Question everything, then use common sence!

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