Reptile & Amphibian Forums

did any of you guys read the living vivarium article in REPTILES? this dude had like a 400 gallon tank and had like 125 differnet animals in it. i averaged it out and it was like 3.5 gallons of space per animal. he had some chameleons, over 10 darts, like 5 species of darts and many differnt morphs. he had fish and day geckos, treefrogs and bugs. i can't beleive they put that [bleep]ty article in a well established magazine. don't the publishers/editors know thats not safe. if that guy had asked anyone why knew anything about herps they would have said don't try to attempt it. the worst part is that he had never kept ANY herps or animals before. this was his first tank and he put all those species in it. for anyone who read that article and was thinking "hey, that guy did it, maybe i should try it"- don't. this guy had no idea what he was doing and if you are going to attempt to mix species; keep both species beforehand sucessfuly, make sure they live in the same place in the wild, don't mix dart species or morphs, dont mix more than 2 species most of the time. and generally it's just a really bad idea unless you are an expert on all species going into the tank.

other than what the guy was keeping the tank, the article was poorly written, it told exactly how he made his, but the information was too specific and not useful to someone who wants to do something like that on a smaller scale. this guy was a carpenter or something and thought he could just put all these species together and not do any research (obviously, otherwise he would not have put all them together).

Look back to the July 21 posts on this forum about this same article, where we discussed the disgusting, outrageous irresponsibility of it.

It reminds me of an old Larson cartoon, if anyone as young as you even remembers Larson's off the charts cartoons-- It's all in one drawing. The aliens have captured some earthlings they'd found in close proximity, and put them together in their "natural environment" in a mixed vivarium display. There are natural woods and pine trees in the vivarium, along with a grizzly bear and a human hunter with a gun.
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Patty
Pahsimeroi, Idaho

D. auratus blue, auratus Ancon Hill, galactonotus orange, galactonotus yellow, fantasticus, reticulatus, imitator, castaneoticus, azureus, pumilio Bastimentos. P. lugubris, vittatus, terribilis mint green, terribilis orange.

unbeleiveable, the ego these people must have to think that they, when they have kept no herps, can accomplish something as impossible this. esp. when no one else can do it. poor animals. and the sad part is, i bet a big handful of people are going to think they can do it and the result will be more dead animals.

I don't subscribe to this magazine, nor have I actually read the article first hand, but did you write a letter to the editor? Maybe there will be enough people with dart experience that subscribe to it, who will also voice their objections, so that it might impress someone on the editorial staff, or at least they may print some of the letters pointing out the problems with this sort of set-up.

It had to have been a costly "experiement." I'm surprised anyone would invest that much money, apparently without any research in to the animals they are mixing.
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Patty
Pahsimeroi, Idaho

D. auratus blue, auratus Ancon Hill, galactonotus orange, galactonotus yellow, fantasticus, reticulatus, imitator, castaneoticus, azureus, pumilio Bastimentos. P. lugubris, vittatus, terribilis mint green, terribilis orange.

i did write one, i just have to send it. i was hoping the same thing, i think im going to post something on frognet about it too. the more people the better.

i was thinking the same thing about the cost, but the guy was a plumber or carpender or something, so he probally had most of the supplies (except the living stuff), cause he built everything, including the actual tank.

Hopefully this plumber has a working toilet, because there are going to be a lot of "toilet" funerals.
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Patty
Pahsimeroi, Idaho

D. auratus blue, auratus Ancon Hill, galactonotus orange, galactonotus yellow, fantasticus, reticulatus, imitator, castaneoticus, azureus, pumilio Bastimentos. P. lugubris, vittatus, terribilis mint green, terribilis orange.

i know, i wouldn't be suprised if all the darts died, and there were like 15 i think. poor little guys.

How can you two be so negative? I love reptiles magazine and I thoroughly enjoyed this article, if not more than for the debate it was sure to have raised. Excuse my ranting, but I must continue.

We don't exactly know this guy's background - for all we know he could a renown biologist that has studied multiple specie enclosures for decades.

We are all entitled to opinions and a freedom of voice. Anyone who is aware of our freedoms know that debating is the way to settle differing views, not arguing - as arguing leads to actions which infringe upon the rights of others! Then again, not taking action results in the loss of your rights. Act! Write those letters! Spawn some debates - if we educate one, then we've made a move in the right direction. Sitting and arguing gets us nowhere.

I think the idea of his enclosure is wildly exciting. While nothing I would ever consider, it makes you actually wonder what research he did put into it and how things are working out. Speculation is about as reliable as the weather. Before I blurt out "I told you so" - has anyone tried finding out more info?

If you wish to educate, use this as an example and provide specific arguments why what this guy has done is not recommended.

I think we ought to be leading by example. I think that we should not denigrate him unless we find out more. Seriously - we all know that many more animals suffer at the hands of the uneducated than at this guy's expense. Plus - this guy has to have some interest in the species... he built it himself! Have either of you never lost an animal to the hands of inexperience? We should certainly hope that even if this doesn't work out - he will learn and make it a habitat for fewer species/specimens.

I thoroughly enjoy both of your contributions to this forum. I also enjoy this forum because it is one of learning, sharing, caring and positivity. I learned so much about darts from you two and I am sure that countless others have too!

Stay positive... that's all.

Thanks.
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-Iman

1.1 BRBs (Ying and Yang)
1.1 JCPs (Striker and Sheila)
0.0.2 BPs (Spot and Speck)
0.0.4 Dendrobates Tinctorius 'Suriname Cobalts'
0.0.4 Dendrobates Auratus 'Costa Rican Green and Black'
5.5 Fish (Insert your favorite names here)
1.0 Miniature Daschund (Rue)

Loving to Learn
Learning to Help
Helping to Love

Stimulate debates, stifle arguments.
Please be nice always.

hold on, i'm going to get the article... The Living Vivarium Series: Tropical Getaway by Rex Lee Searcey.

The tank has 72 square feet and it's dimensions are 6'L 3'Wx 4'T, and to say the least, it is a very big tank. It has a 30 gallon pool. Thats a big tank, but for over 100 animals? and over 32 species? maybe not. Rex Lee was trying to create a "dream viv" with many species existing together in harmony, something that naturally exists in nature. But in nature animals dont' get along, when many people try to create multiple species vivs they often argue the point that "they get along in the wild", but most of the time they don't. They occupy different niches, they live in different parts of the habitat, and they often prey on eachother. you say we don't know much about this man, and we don't, and he could have studied, but im guessing he failed, because anyone who knows anything about this knows that mixing species is risky- with only 2 species, but over 32, that is an impossible task and is only attempted by the ignorant at the expense of the animals. i also love reptiles magazine and have been reading it for the past few years and haven't really found anything that i disagreed with like this. i wouldn't say this is arguing, just debating. it is the person who reads these jobs to figure out what they think, and hopefully most will agree with me in saying that mixing over 30 species in an enclosure is not a good idea. i did the math and there is around 3.5 gallons for each animal in the tank. and from just glancing at the long list of species i see a snake, dendrobates, lizards, reed frogs, and an assortment of invertibrates and fish. i am not going to say anything about the fish and inverts. because i don't know as much about them. but for anyone who keeps poison frogs seriously they know that these beautiful little frogs are extremely territorial. a little frog that is the size of a thumbnail will claim a territory over ten gallons, almost 3 times what they are getting. one of the species;D. leucomelas will drown any frog that attempts to get in the way of it's breeding. and another thing, mixing morphs? not a good idea either. they could breed and make hybrids, heavily frowned among apon in the dart world. the diets of these animals range from crickets to fruit flies. fruit flies, while a perfect food for darts will lay eggs in leaf litter and can harm other larger animals that will not know to eat them. and crickets for the chameleons and geckos, they could kill many of the dart frogs. interest isn't enough, reserch counts and apparently this guy did none. i think we aught to continue this for those reading, and for those reading, please contribute, the more people that we get to say no to 32 species in one tank the better! triniian- do some reserch on darts, on the species kept in the tank, and after you have done enough come back and tell us why YOU think they could be kept together. i've allready told you why they can't.

we arn't being pessimists, just realists, and in genral (this might be hard for you to beleive im an optomist). but the fact is that 85% of all herps die within their first year of care, and this is why. and thats a fact and numbers don't lie.

Very well put!

Thanks for the reply. I enjoy these "debates"

I have nothing to counter your argument as I agree with you.
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-Iman

1.1 BRBs (Ying and Yang)
1.1 JCPs (Striker and Sheila)
0.0.2 BPs (Spot and Speck)
0.0.4 Dendrobates Tinctorius 'Suriname Cobalts'
0.0.4 Dendrobates Auratus 'Costa Rican Green and Black'
5.5 Fish (Insert your favorite names here)
1.0 Miniature Daschund (Rue)

Loving to Learn
Learning to Help
Helping to Love

Stimulate debates, stifle arguments.
Please be nice always.

thank you for not being ignorant and doing your reserch, and being honest. i also enjoy these debates (though they can get pretty long and time consuming at times!)

You are right, Trinian, our responses were indeed negative. I made my comments on the information that was given, and still have not read the article myself. The author does have some experience with various herps, and has written articles on some of them, as well as having over 30 years experience building vivariums. You can see his web site on the link posted below. They are indeed beautiful.

However, this does not make the mixing of so many diverse animals in that space a viable choice. I am mostly concerned with the darts because I do have about 10 years of experience keeping 12 different species of them in separate living vivariums, and have done a lot of homework on each. I've also probably read about all that has been written on the various forums about the mixing issue. While a lot of the negative opinions are simply repetitious, most are well founded from people much more experienced than I. Those knowledgeable people with years of experience, who do any kind of mixing, do so with extreme caution. Some zoo displays do mix different species of compatible darts and selected tree frogs temporarily.

I'm not sure of the difference between argument and debate, but I suppose my comment that mixing some 100 different animals including 10 species of dart frogs is irresponsible is considered an "argument."

1. The various genera and species of dart frogs are distributed throughout the rain forests and savanas from Central America and the Islands, into Northern and Central South America. They are separated into large niches. I personally can't think of 10 different species that would be compatible with each other, although there are two or three that might not have problems with each other given plenty of space.

2. The intimidation factor is important, sometimes even between individuals of the more group-oriented species, let alone among those that are extremely territorial.

3. With all of the other herps utilizing space, some of which would not respect dart territories and niches, there is bound to be invasions and stress.

4. Possible transmission of parasites and diseases between the frogs and other herps, as well as the exacerbation of existing parasites due to the population pressure is a concern. (Many darts do carry low levels of potentially pathogenic parasites that their immune systems normally keep under control. When the immune system is compromised by traumatic or stressful situations, these can become pathogenic.)

5. Food availability. How would it be feasible to provide a proper live food diet for each of these animals in the same cage without running into problems? Large crickets meant for lizards or geckos, invading, or even attacking the dart frogs, distributing dusted fruit flies and other small live foods and monitoring consumption by the frogs would not be easy problems to solve.

6. Hybridization among the darts. I doubt that much breeding would be taking place in this type of environment, but this is a concern to many conservationists and hobbyists who are concerned with keeping the various color morphs and species as close to the original as possible.

7. Over-all my main objection is that this has been set up as a kind of ideal dream tank that most beginners in the dart hobby seem to desire. (I was no exception to this when I started out.) My fear is that they will attempt to emulate this before becoming more familiar with the dart species. I wonder how many of these frogs will be bold enough to ever come out in the open under these circumstances? Even with single species tanks, there are those that are shy and seldom seen.

I have confined these comments to my concern over the welfare of dart frogs, as I have very little to no experience with any of the other herps mentioned.
Secret Environments

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Patty
Pahsimeroi, Idaho

D. auratus blue, auratus Ancon Hill, galactonotus orange, galactonotus yellow, fantasticus, reticulatus, imitator, castaneoticus, azureus, pumilio Bastimentos. P. lugubris, vittatus, terribilis mint green, terribilis orange.

Sorry, that link I gave doesn't work, but you can find it with a search using Rex Lee Searcey, or Secret Environments. It's worth a look at some of his vivariums.
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Patty
Pahsimeroi, Idaho

D. auratus blue, auratus Ancon Hill, galactonotus orange, galactonotus yellow, fantasticus, reticulatus, imitator, castaneoticus, azureus, pumilio Bastimentos. P. lugubris, vittatus, terribilis mint green, terribilis orange.

Excellent points Patty!

Very well done indeed! I want to say thanks because now you have shown, at least in part for darts, why mixing is not a good idea. I recommend you save your post for future inquiries.

Also, for your clarity... an argument has two differing meanings.

An argument is the data used to back up one's view point in a debate. This is true - but there is also 'arguing', an inappropriate attachment to the word 'argument' where one tries to get their point across through the denigration of other's.

Thanks for this post. I have a smile from ear to ear...

Also, I will look up Lee Rex's vivariums - my curiosity is peaked!
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-Iman

1.1 BRBs (Ying and Yang)
1.1 JCPs (Striker and Sheila)
0.0.2 BPs (Spot and Speck)
0.0.4 Dendrobates Tinctorius 'Suriname Cobalts'
0.0.4 Dendrobates Auratus 'Costa Rican Green and Black'
5.5 Fish (Insert your favorite names here)
1.0 Miniature Daschund (Rue)

Loving to Learn
Learning to Help
Helping to Love

Stimulate debates, stifle arguments.
Please be nice always.

Here's a more appeasing quotation from the one person I know who actually does have a lot of mixing experience as a herp keeper in the New Jersey Zoo, Ed K.

"If a person is willing to research out zoogeographic correct multispecies enclosures and use animals that are suited for the niches in the tank once it has been set-up as opposed to simply shoehorning animals in to see if it works, then I have no problems with it." Ed.

Patty

you people are rediculous.. there is not 150 different animals in this tank. the majority of the animals are fish anyway, and the aquarium part was estimated to be about 50-100 gallons. which left the majority of the tank suitable for the amphibians and reptiles it housed. all of the animals are compatible with each other, requiring almost exactly the same setup, temp, humidity, etc..

i think it is a fantastic display tank. and would love to own one like that myself.

what the hell r u talking about? did you not see the list of animals kept in that tank? it's rediculus. and this is why i posted this, so that i could tell people like you that this kind of set up doesn't work. while at first glance it may look like a little piece of nature, look a little closer, do you see the water pumps, the florescent lighting, the filters, the heaters... while people may claim it's exactly like nature, it's not. what about the parasites, hte preditors, natural selection. i dobt theres any of those things.

next time do a little reserch before you say something like this is effecient and "cool". reserch dart frogs, all the species mentioned in the article, and you 'll see that they all have different care requirements, as well as locations in the wild. COMMUNITY TANKS ARE NEVER GOOD IEDEAS, and no matter how much people get told, they keep wanting to think otherwise.

take a look at the animals in the vivarium, do they live in the same geographic location? nope. do they eat the same food? nope. do they occupy the same niche? yes- bad for a community tank. could they eat eachother? yes. are they given enough space?nope. dart frogs need AT LEAST 10 gallons per two frogs, and those little chams need at least 10 per. neither dart frogs or chameleons are good swimmers, so any one of them could drown in that pool. chams eat crix, crix can kill thumbnail poison frogs.

i want you to reserch all the species you think can go together (excluding fish) and tell me why you think so. and you will see that community tanks are 99% of the time, a bad idea. and the animals are the ones who suffer.