Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Is a 4' cube a good size for an adult gaboon viper?

a 4' x 4' enclosure may be difficult to work with (4 feet of height will be wasted space but if you want a feeling of openess as an exhibit, then it would be okay as long as you provide plenty of floor cover. Floor space is indeed very important and 4 x 4 is ample space but could be difficult to manage unless you have special built in dividers (if you do, then this would work great). Otherwise, something like 6' x 3' would work very well. If you can build in a divider, that will make your life much easier in terms of servicing the cage.

Rob Carmichael

>>Is a 4' cube a good size for an adult gaboon viper?
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Rob Carmichael, Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center at Elawa Farm
Lake Forest, IL

It would be 4' long, 4' wide, and 18" in height.

That's plenty of floor space and the height is fine. With that kind of depth, you may have some challenges in safely removing fecal matter, etc., however, if you get a 50 inch Gentle Giant tongs from www.tongs.com you'll be able to safely reach in and remove various matter (in conjunction with a shield). Don't underestimate the strike range and speed of these animals.

>>It would be 4' long, 4' wide, and 18" in height.
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Rob Carmichael, Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center at Elawa Farm
Lake Forest, IL

What is the strike range for the animal. Ive heard many estimates but how far could a five foot animal strike?

It's not only the strike distance that you have to worry about, but also the speed that these snakes can move in short spurts. Many people don't realize just how fast these snakes can move (I'll vouch for our big female - she caught me off guard once and I thought I was dealing with a mamba on steroids). Strike distances will depend on how agitated (or hungry) the snake is. Ambush strikes are short, quick and deliberate. Defensive strikes can be much longer (maybe 1/2 to 3/4 of the snake's body) as they tend to throw themselves at the obstacle.

>>What is the strike range for the animal. Ive heard many estimates but how far could a five foot animal strike?
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Rob Carmichael, Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center at Elawa Farm
Lake Forest, IL

Yeah, with a 5 foot animal you should assume that it can reach any point in a 4 foot cage from any other point in the cage unless you at least use a shield. And don't underestimate the power of a snake that size to push past a shield either.

Also, think long and hard about how dificult a thorough cleaning of a cage of those dimensions will be. Unless it comes apart, you will be crawling inside, which will be no fun if it's 18 inches high. Anything much more than 2 feet deep becomes a real chore to clean... It might be managable if it opens at BOTH ends, but I bet you'll still hate it.
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What goes up must come down...unless it exceeds escape velocity.

It would actually open from the top.

It actually opens from the top. Essentially a plexiglass lid.

I think you should re-think the design of this cage. A top opening cage is going to be a real pain when it comes having to take the snake out. Additionally, it will be difficult to shield the snake when you are coming from the top. I'm not sure how you are going to secure a plexi top - it just sounds a bit flimsy for a snake with the strenght of a gaboon.

>>It actually opens from the top. Essentially a plexiglass lid.
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Rob Carmichael, Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center at Elawa Farm
Lake Forest, IL

The poster mentioned that it would be essentially a plexiglass lid. While plexi in and of itself would not be strong enough for that large of an area, I'd guess they plan on framing it in some fashion.

How would an 18-inch tall cage be difficult to remove a large gaboon from? Sure it won't be the easiest thing in the world, but moving a large gaboon out of any cage can be difficult for logistical reasons. I've read of some using snow shovels and/or modified snow shovels.

I've found top opening vs front opening is often a decision that is highly keeper based. Either can be safely utilized, depending on cage design and what the keeper is comfortable with. I've used shields on snakes in both types of cages without problem. I prefer front opening on runny snakes such as mambas etc... but for a gaboon I don't see how a top opening would be a problem. Perhaps there is something that I'm missing here?

...when considering an animal with the lethal potential of B. gabonica, one would hope that you've thoroughly reasearched these issues before seriously contemplating acquiring the animal. I would say this to ANYONE considering acquiring a potentially lethal animal, so please do not take my comments as a personal attack...they are not intended to be so.

I completely understand your fascination with this species as they truly are beautiful. However, along with that beauty comes the power to kill quite efficiently. Have you also researched appropriate avenues by which to acquire necessary antivenin in the event of a bite? Do you have a pre-existing protocol in place (i.e. what hosptial you'll go to, who you'll call, etc.) in the event of a bite?

Yes, both the strike speed and force that these animals are capable of can be truly awesome...couple that with 1.5 inch fangs and a virulent cocktail of venom, and you've got a nightmare if the worst happens...Also consider that the yield of even an average bite by an adult Gaboon is more than the TOTAL yield of many other species...They have HUGE heads and HUGE venom glands...

If you're seriously considering one, PLEASE do not take their placid nature for granted...Seeing a "grumpy" adult gaboon can be a scary thing even for a veteran herper.

I could go on and on here, but essentially all I'm saying here is this...Please, do your research on ALL aspects of maintaining an animal like this BEFORE making a dedicated decision either way...Few decisions can have such serious consequences...If, after careful deliberation you've chosen to proceed, then do so (provided of course that the animal is legal in your area...I'd expect you to research this as well). Above all else, BE CAREFUL! You'd be surprised at how an animal's placid nature can allow one's guard to drop...and with an animal like this, there is NO room for a lapse in judgement...

Btw- I'm glad to see that you're asking these questions (presumably) before getting the animal...such behavior indicates careful thought and a responsible demeanor. Thank you. I wish more people did this...perhaps then the hobby/profession wouldn't be in the legal position it's in.

K...off the soap-box
-AzAtrox

Actually the animal I would be aquiring would be venomoid. Really sorry to offend the purists but I believe in the procedure. I really hope that choice does not affect future postings of yours to help me gain information on the husbandry of the species. The snake him/herself will still be treated as a fully venomous snake and great care will be taken to respect its power.

Never thought of using a snow shovel although that is a very good idea...

Venomoid? Post it in the venomoid forum then. If you're willing to take a shortcut on that aspect of the snake, then you're probably taking shortcuts elsewhere.

I am still looking for general opinions on husbandry practices. After all, it is still a gaboon, I am not discussing ethics, so I didnt go to the venomoid forum. I really hope this conversation can stay civil.

I apologize... and maybe it is my opinion and my opinion alone, but in my experience the people that I've seen want venomoids are not getting into reptile keeping for the right reasons. Maybe I'm being a jerk, but I just don't feel comfortable discussing these issues with someone who isn't willing to put the well-being of the animal first and foremost.

Sorry.

I completely respect your opinion, but, again, this is not meant to discuss ethics, but husbandry of the Gaboon Viper. Any input on that would be very appreciated.

While I may not agree with the concept of venomoids, you are correct...initially your request had nothing to do with whether the snake was "intact" or not...Because the animal deserves the utmost care regardless of it's "venomous ability" I will continue to assist you with your husbandry related questions...Keep in mind, I do not keep Gaboons myself, but I know quite a bit about them....

Also, the fact that this animal has been rendered "venomless" does not change it's legal standing...If your state, county, city, etc. prohibits the possession of exotic venomous reptiles then this animal is likewise prohibited...

Btw- I believe it a bit short-sighted to refuse to assist someone in the accumulation of knowledge just because they may believe differently than we do...In my opinion, knowledge should be shared rather than reserved for those that hold similar belief systems as we do. Again, just my opinion...

-AzAtrox

Thank you for a very mature posting. I have a quaestion though. I wanted to keep some sort of leaf litter in the enclosure and was wondering whether those nylon or similiar materialed artificial leaves would be safe to use.

I would think that so long as the animal did not ingest an artificial leaf during feeding, this would be fine. Silk or nylon foilage is often used for display cages with no ill effects. Again, just be sure the animal does not ingest any and you should be fine.

-AzAtrox

I was concerned about possible "burns" or blisters produced by the friction of the material, and did not want to use real leaves for sanitation reasons, but thanks thats good news. Now all I have to do is decide on a substrate.

Well, gaboons tend to stay pretty stationary much of the time...kinda like ornately patterned slugs...I wouldn't be too concerned with "friction burns" due to artificial foilage so long as that foilage was soft (i.e. silk)...I'd be more concerned with the ingestion issue than anything else.

As far as substrate, people that I've known that have kept Gaboons have had success with aspen bedding or newspaper mulch...avoid cedar at all costs as the oils can be toxic...You could use good old fashioned newspaper as well, but I imagine you are seeking a more esthetically pleasing vivarium.

-AzAtrox

Right. Newspaper is not what I am looking for. What do you think about coconut fibers?

So long as the animal did not ingest these in great quantities, you'd be fine....

And That could be minimized quite easily could it not?

I also agree that the conversation should stay professional and mature. Personally, I see so many irresponsible owners keeping hots that I am almost of the belief that going the venomoid route (done by a licensed vet) is better than putting fully hot animals in the care of people who are ill equipped (and don't do things properly). It's a philosophical debate and there's no real right or wrong but most folks can't debate in a manner that doesn't get explosive. NOW ON TO THE QUESTION AT HAND:

At our facility, our gaboon on exhibit is kept on several inches of a top soil, peat, leaf litter mixture. On top of that, we place another 4-6 inches of REAL oak leaves. USE REAL LEAVES AND NATURAL SUBSTRATES for your gaboons! If you are concerned about "pests" (and we have never had a problem, no mites, etc.) just "cook" everything at 350 for 30 minutes, OR, place leaves in a plastic bag and spray some provent a mite, shake, knot up and leave for a day. Seriously, I would encourage you to provide your gaboon with natural items as they become far more inquisitive of their surroundings.

Don't worry about getting torched about the venomoid debate. Just keep things professional, courteous and respectful and you'll get the info you need.

Rob Carmichael, Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center

>>And That could be minimized quite easily could it not?
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Rob Carmichael, Curator
The Wildlife Discovery Center at Elawa Farm
Lake Forest, IL

Yep, gaboons are best kept on natural substrates with real leaf litter... Once in a while I will find some isopods and other assorted inverts in the cage but that is fine... Isopods are actually good to have around as they eat fecal matter and rotting vegitation.

If you get a chance, try to get a back issue of the Oct 2006 issue of REPTILES mag... There is an article written by myself that gives a detailed rundown of husbandry requirements for the Gaboon Viper... There are also other great articles on safe husbandry and other keeping issues...
It might be helpful to you...

You might want to watch this YouTube video before deciding to use artificial plants. It is a video of Viperkeeper trying to prevent his Rhino Viper from eating an artificial leaf along with his meal.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jgrs-aJkt44

Out of curiosity, what venomous experience do you have? Your questions seem good, but the fact that you mention you want a venomoid makes me wonder if you are taking short cuts... I'm just curious as a gaboon venomoid is not a good choice for a first hot on many different levels.

I have no experience in keeping gaboons or even bitis vipers. 10 or so years ago I had a good collection of crotalids including 2 atrox and an adamanteus. So I am not completely unschooled in keeping hots. And no, none of them were venomoid.

Bobby,

I don't necessarily think it's accurate to assume that just because someone has a venomoid that this means they are taking "shortcuts" with regards to the animals' care....I know we have a whole forum devoted to venomoid discussion so I won't post a novel...Suffice it to say that I've known competent keepers that for one reason or another had a venomoid in their collection and this animal was provided the same level of care as the "fully loaded" snakes were...

Is it right? Well, that's a matter of debate but the fact remains that these keepers ensured the health of all their charges whether fully equipped with venom or not.

-AzAtrox

>>I have no experience in keeping gaboons or even bitis vipers. 10 or so years ago I had a good collection of crotalids including 2 atrox and an adamanteus. So I am not completely unschooled in keeping hots. And no, none of them were venomoid.

This was not me that posted this!!!!! I have changed my password and hopefully this problem will have been solved.

>>>>I have no experience in keeping gaboons or even bitis vipers. 10 or so years ago I had a good collection of crotalids including 2 atrox and an adamanteus. So I am not completely unschooled in keeping hots. And no, none of them were venomoid.
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>> This was not me that posted this!!!!! I have changed my password and hopefully this problem will have been solved.

I am unsure why you think someone hacked your account. The post was made from the same computer access as all the other posts you made that day - the IP addresses all match up. You made 13 posts that day on the venomous forums and going by the time stamps, most were made within a short time frame both before and after the supposed hacked post. If you truly believe someone hacked your account it would have had to have been someone with access to your computer who also knew what site you like to post to and which forum and thread within that site.

# RE: Joe... - JoeEdmark, Thu Aug 9 21:55:25 2007
# RE: Joe... - JoeEdmark, Thu Aug 9 21:46:23 2007
# RE: Joe... - JoeEdmark, Thu Aug 9 21:38:40 2007
# RE: Gaboon enclosure size? - JoeEdmark, Thu Aug 9 21:02:00 2007 (supposed 'hacked' post)
# RE: Joe... - JoeEdmark, Thu Aug 9 20:46:31 2007
# RE: free handling venomoids - JoeEdmark, Thu Aug 9 20:28:01 2007
# RE: This is not intended to be a "flame" - JoeEdmark, Thu Aug 9 20:20:42 2007
# RE: This is not intended to be a "flame" - JoeEdmark, Thu Aug 9 20:15:26 2007
# RE: This is not intended to be a "flame" but - JoeEdmark, Thu Aug 9 20:01:29 2007
# RE: This is not intended to be a "flame" but - JoeEdmark, Thu Aug 9 19:56:12 2007
# RE: Gaboon enclosure size? - JoeEdmark, Thu Aug 9 14:47:48 2007
# RE: Gaboon enclosure size? - JoeEdmark, Thu Aug 9 14:46:39 2007
# RE: Gaboon enclosure size? - Joeedmark, Thu Aug 9 01:41:57 2007

I did have quite a few friends over that night, and one of them may have done it. I know I didn't.

Maybe the use of the term "hacker" was a little to extreme. Maybe just a friend typing on a forum I was participating in after I temporarily vacated the computor. I have a feeling I know who it might have been and isn't really that big of a deal. For the record, I have never kept venomous snakes.

Turns out my guess as to who it was is correct. HE shal go nameless.

Let me clarify, it was not a hack.