Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Some years ago there was a discussion and the possibility of toxicity in saliva of some venomoids(especially certain cobras). Wondering if anyone else remembers the discussion, and if there was ever any actual research done on the question-if I remember right something was mentioned that mice bitten by venomoid cobras were partially paralyzed shortly after the bite and dead within an hour, and rats either seemed to not be affected or had enough body mass to "shrug off" the toxicity-humans bitten by the same snakes had severe headaches and little else.
I was discussing this possibility with someone else the other day, and was wondering if anything was ever discovered or verified whether it was toxicity in the saliva itself or if it was a botched surgery where a very small part of the venom gland was left behind. Sorry to bring up the topic, but since it does regard retained toxicity and not opinions on the issue(I don't like the surgery either) I figured the question was more at home here.

Dr. Bryan Grieg Fry is doing some research on the evolution of snakes by studying their toxins.
He has been able to find cobratoxin and associated glands in snakes like ptyas, and to quote-“ We've subsequently found these toxins in pretty much every 'colubrid' species we've looked at,”. These snakes lack the evolutionary step to venom delivery typically associated with venomous snakes, but have the gland and venom. We all have heard that “modified salivary gland” description used for venom glands. Turns out a few colubrids have them too. Through his study of snake evolution by examining the venom in these snakes, we will probably see that some are more closely related to elapids. (I always thought those cribos looked a lot like some hots!) Almost all snakes are descended from snakes with venom glands, (perhaps sea snakes?) the effective delivery mechanisms in some are a notable advancement. Not sure if this is on the track of your post, but basically, a lot of snakes probably have toxic saliva and very poor delivery mechanisms. A venomoid that is a duct or partial gland removal, or where the gland may be regenerating (impossible with complete removal, of course) is just like any of these other snakes that posses the toxin, but ineffective delivery mechanism. A complete gland removal probably makes a venomoid less toxic than a lot of colubrids!

Thanks for the info-still trying to find a link to the old discussion I mentioned(have found posts from roughly the same time, 4-5 years ago I think) but just not that specific subject.
I'm with you on the looks of the cribos though-saw quite a large one at a show at Reptile Gardens last summer. Venomous or not, very interesting snake.

Ha ha, I just realized. God made venomoids, and called them “colubrids”.

Venom is nothing more than modified saliva. While some colubrids have venoms that are just as toxic drop for drop as elapids, they not only lack the delivery system but most produce very tiny quantities of it. As for cribos, I believe Dr. Fry had said that the indigos/bird snakes had reduced, very small venom glands and have resorted to being "bully feeders" using their size and power to overcome prey. Apparently the only colubrids that lack venom are the North American clade including kingsnakes, ratsnakes, pituophis, etc. Have a look at this site and forum at www.venomdoc.com. Extremely informative.