Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I have seen several discussions on this board in the past about whether or not ring-necked snakes (Diadophis punctatus) are venomous. I thought readers of this forum might be interested in the following article that was just published:

O'Donnell, R.P., K. Staniland, & R.T. Mason. 2007. Experimental evidence that oral secretions of Northwestern ring-necked snakes (Diadophis punctatus occidentalis) are toxic to their prey. Toxicon 50(6):810-815.

You can reach this article at my webpage at http://home.comcast.net/~tsirtalis/017experimentalevidence.pdf

-Ryan

really interesting, thanx for this!

alexander

So cool. I have often wondered if they were "Venomous" Its just so hard to say unless someone gets bit which is so highly unlikely with this placid and tinnny mouth creature or someone does a gas cromatograph study of the "saliva" to see weither or not it would be considered venomous to humans. Also Consider that a good medication in high doses could also be considered poison. More than likely the western would be more toxic but still highly unlikey with yeilds considered and appropriate administration to be dangerous. They are great! I went hunting for them in Kentucky and they are so seclusive but so doscile.

>>So cool. I have often wondered if they were "Venomous" Its just so hard to say unless someone gets bit which is so highly unlikely with this placid and tinnny mouth creature or someone does a gas cromatograph study of the "saliva" to see weither or not it would be considered venomous to humans. Also Consider that a good medication in high doses could also be considered poison. More than likely the western would be more toxic but still highly unlikey with yeilds considered and appropriate administration to be dangerous. They are great! I went hunting for them in Kentucky and they are so seclusive but so doscile.

Human effects are totally irrelevant as to whether or not something is venomous. Most spiders cause undetectable human effects either through inefficient delivery or through too small of venom yields. Their prey items, however, are utterly screwed. Whether or not something is venomous comes down to whether or not it has a specialised gland that produces toxins that target physiological systems. Pretty much all the advanced snakes are venomous with the notable exception of species that have switched to constriction as alternate form of prey capture (the American bullsnake/pinesnake/ratsnake clade) or switched to a dietary preference that does not require immobilisation such as snails/slugs or bird eggs. Other than that, they all still have venom and ringneck snakes are no exception. This study was a nice piece of work. The true venomous nature of the non-front-fanged snakes has been overlooked simply because of arrogance on our part. We have assumed that we are somehow special. If something doesn't affect us, then this must somehow be an important piece of data. When in fact it is evolutionarily irrelevant. What is important is the perspective of a five gram frog.

For some in-depth information about venom evolution in advanced snakes, have a read of our rather sizeable study that was just released
http://forums.kingsnake.com/view.php?id=1397914,1397914

Cheers
Bryan
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Dr. Bryan Grieg Fry
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Department of Biochemistry,
Bio21 Institute,
University of Melbourne
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http://www.venomdoc.com

I was told by my herpetology professor that there venom is geared towards killing worms and the like. They are not harmful to humans. I used to work at a field school and when we gave reptile talks I always made sure to have a ringneck on hand. They are so little and cute that everyone likes them. I would pass it around then tell them that they just held a venemous, yet harmless, snake.

Thanks for putting that into prospective. Its all completely relevant to the target species. Where as venom may be lethal to other snakes or reptiles it may be harmless to a human or maybe not. Just because its not harfull to us doesn't mean its not venomous and people react differently to different envenomations. So nothing might happen to me or I may get a rash but someone else may be dead or in the hospital. I am always very cautious around any reptile and treat them with respect for my safety and their safety. I believe that underestemating the effects of a boomslang killed a very respected herpetologist. I have dealt with many Poecilotheria species as well and from many accounts fear the potential much more than ringneck bites but treat them with equal respect and caution. I never want to get tagged by any creature let alone potentially venomous species. So if I seemed a little lax in the issue, I didn't mean to.

What is important is the perspective of a five gram frog.

....exactly

A buddy of mine has been doing feeding trials with Diadophis p.regalis over the past few years on various colubrids. most of all of them succombed to the bite within several minutes to as long as an hour or so. the bite site is usually discolored and swollen when examined later. So, to a small ectotherm these guys might as well be elapids with a fancy paint job...

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Cheers
Lateralis
"I would rather be precisely wrong than approximately right"
Marion "Doc" Ford

I have had 3 ringnecks (edwardsi) in Connecticut and Vermont that have tried to bite. Also, I have seen a Ringneck use its Venom against a Juvinal Black Rat. The rat snake was envenomated and almost died..
It took about 12 hours for the ratsnake to recover..
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www.newenglandherps.com
www.kingsnake.com/chl

>>I have had 3 ringnecks (edwardsi) in Connecticut and Vermont that have tried to bite. Also, I have seen a Ringneck use its Venom against a Juvinal Black Rat. The rat snake was envenomated and almost died..
>>It took about 12 hours for the ratsnake to recover..
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Dunno if this applies or not, but many many years ago we fed a couple of southern ringnecks to a young eastern king. The king was dead within a week. It's possible one or both of the ringnecks could have bitten the inside of the king's mouth or something.... but there is no proof that they were indeed the cause of the snake's death.
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PHWyvern

There are many cases of people feeding ringnecks to kings and then the kings later dying.
No one has really come to a conclusion as to what causes it. Some think maybe the ringneck snake musk might be a factor, some think maybe the ringneck snake got hold of a flap of skin inside the king.
Who knows.
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Mike
KingPin Reptiles Inc.
www.kingpinreptiles.com
^ Updated 10/8

Thanks for the link. Great article. I was bitten by a 12" Northern Ring-neck when I was in Middle school. I caught him and was riding my bike home with him in my hand. I felt a little tug and saw him clamped onto the skin between my thumb and index finger. Needless to say, he didn't break the skin and it wouldn't have mattered if he did unless I had an allergic reaction. It was funny. Now I can say I have been bitten by a venomous snake.
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1.1 crested gecko
Ball pythons 1.1 pastel, 1.1 spider, 0.2 albino het snow, 1.0 axanthic het snow, 0.1 het hypo, 1.0 hypo, 1.0 lesser platty, 1.1 het piebald, 0.2 normal