Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Otis07--I noticed these on your list and wonder how you like them. I've just set up a new 55 gallon long vivarium with waterfall, pond, etc., intended for more dart frogs I planned to order next spring. I've seen the mossies listed by the same breeder I usually use for darts, and was wondering what you personally thought of them, as well as anyone else on this forum who keeps them. I may want to adapt this tank a little more toward their specific needs and try them.
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Patty
Pahsimeroi, Idaho

Dendrobates: auratus blue, auratus Ancon Hill, tinctorius azureus, leucomelas. Phyllobates: vittatus, terribilis, lugubris. Epipedobates: anthonyi tricolor pasaje. Ranitomeya fantastica, imitator, reticulata. Adelphobates castaneoticus, galactonotus. Oophagia pumilio Bastimentos. (updated systematic nomenclature)

I punched the post button before I was finished. Two more specific questions: What are the population density suggestions for a 55 gallon tank? How well do they do in a live plant, biologically recycling type tank that we use for dart frogs?--i.e. any particular disruption of plants and substrate, problems with water quality?
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Patty
Pahsimeroi, Idaho

Dendrobates: auratus blue, auratus Ancon Hill, tinctorius azureus, leucomelas. Phyllobates: vittatus, terribilis, lugubris. Epipedobates: anthonyi tricolor pasaje. Ranitomeya fantastica, imitator, reticulata. Adelphobates castaneoticus, galactonotus. Oophagia pumilio Bastimentos. (updated systematic nomenclature)

Slaytonp- I have had my mossies for about three months now, and I LOVE them. They are absolutely gorgeous and pics don’t do them justice. From my experience, which is limited, they seem pretty hardy. I have three juvies (they are about 1 inch now) in a 10 gallon. It has about 2.5-3 inches of water. There is a piece of floating cork and moss covered rocks. I put tons of plant cuttings in and they have since grown and adapted. Their favorite plant so far would be the pothos; they hide on the underside during the day and come out at night to hunt. They also stay under water for a good chunk of the day. It scared the crap out of me when I first got them because they stayed completely submerged for a long time. They will also stick to the glass underwater and just keep their nose up to breath, although they tend to hide in the water plants when they sense your presence. They don’t move at all during the day, but at night they seem to get more arboreal.

For substrate I just have gravel, and that doesn’t seem to hurt their skin at all. I think eventually I will add a little sand to the top though. When I first got them I was a little worried about water quality, but that hasn’t been a problem. The only thing that I would worry about is the buildup of dead crickets. I don’t have a filter so I just net them out. I do leave some in though; there is this green algae/aquatic moss stuff that is starting to “eat” the dead crix. I think all the plants help with the water quality a lot though. I didn’t start off with any aquatic plants, but they kind of just appeared. I think that is due to the light and the dead crix. I have an energy efficient spirally bulb on it and it produced a lot of light. They don’t like it too hot, but a lot of light is ok and I didn’t have a florescent…

Where were you thinking of getting your mossies? Saurian.net has them and I got mine from aaronsfrogfarm.com. Aaron always has them available, and saurian only has them available sporadically I think. For a 55 gallon, you could get a lot. I would say 5 to a 30 gallon, and maybe 7ish for a 55 gallon. If you were planning on breeding it’s better to have more males. They aren’t at all territorial, but what I thought was kind of neat is they lay individual eggs, they will lay on the branches that are coming out of the water and the eggs each will be laid and fertilized separately. Saurian.net has a really detailed care sheet on them and it was published in REPTILES magazine a little while ago.

Good luck if you do decide to get them and I hope this helped!
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RES
WTF
FBT
Russian Tortoise
Hingeback tortoise
Leos
Lawsons Dragon
Aussi
Ocelot Gecko
0.0.3 Vietnamese Mossy Treefrogs
Oregon Newt
Japanese FBN
American Bullfrog
0.0.4 D. tinctorius
D. auratus
D. leucomelas
1.1D. imitator
0.0.2 imitator intermedius
1.1.1D. lamasi
Grandis Day Gecko
Mali Uro
0.0.4 Hourglass Treefrogs
Hedgehog, bunnies, dog, fish, crawfish...

Since they stay in the water quite a bit, I'd recommend getting a decent filter. I have mine setup 2/3 water and 1/3 land with a bunch of plants, corkbark shore, etc... I feel that it's necessary to have a biologically stable environment and I do weekly water changes on the tank. If you test the water your frogs are in, I'm sure it'll make you buy a filter since the ammonia levels will be VERY high since they defecate directly into the water and without some sort of area for aerobic bacteria to properly congregate and circulate water(i.e. filter with pump) then you run into the problem of the inability or crippled ability for ammonia to enter the nitrogen cycle which is bad and since frogs tend to absorb anything directly through their skin, you will create a terrible situation... I will say that I occasionally had issues with a few troublemakers that didn't want to eat for some odd reason and were being outcompeted, but I isolate "skinnies" and feed them individually if this occurs. I've had lots of fun with my mossies and the calls are definitely interesting without being ridiculously loud (see kassina maculata or solomon island eyelash frogs for explanation of loud calls.)
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1.1 Chocolate Leucomelas
2.0.2 green and bronze auratus
0.0.1 D. truncatus.
3.2 K. Maculata
0.0.1 blue white's tree frog
0.0.1 suriname mossy tree frog(looks like birdpoo LOL)
0.0.5 Vietnamese mossy frogs
0.0.1 Pyxie frog
1.0.0 95% Green Ceratophrys Cornuta(looking for more greens!)

Thank you for that insight. How about fairly deep water with fish such as tetras? I assumed they may eat anything they can stuff into their mouths, which would include at least some of the tetras, perhaps. I have a 180 gallon paludarium with two land sections on either side of a 9" deep pool with a lot of aquatic plants, and water running across the front. It has both a large external canister filter for the water as well as the water being returned over a fern panel drip wall, colonizing now with Java and Ricca mosses, as well as some fern prothallium developing into ferns. I haven't introduced darts into this yet, as I've been vacillating over which species I want to use there. This is just a thought--that instead of darts, I might try some mossies. The fish are various tetras, some small varieties of cat fish and algae eaters plus a clown loach. I could replace the fish with fewer of a larger variety, as I have another paludarium with tetras where they could go. What do you think of this idea? The photos are various views of this.

I'll need to upload a photo of the waterway itself, as these don't show it.

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Patty
Pahsimeroi, Idaho

Dendrobates: auratus blue, auratus Ancon Hill, tinctorius azureus, leucomelas. Phyllobates: vittatus, terribilis, lugubris. Epipedobates: anthonyi tricolor pasaje. Ranitomeya fantastica, imitator, reticulata. Adelphobates castaneoticus, galactonotus. Oophagia pumilio Bastimentos. (updated systematic nomenclature)

Here are two more photos showing the entire tank from the left corner and the central aquarium portion. The white stuff under the water is Great Stuff which now has sphagnum over it and is being colonized rather quickly with Ricca. The brownish coloration is tannins from the tree fern fiber. Since this photo, I've done a couple of partial water changes to lighten this for better fish viewing. I have some small Mountain Mahogany logs that I could put in there for easier egress to land, if needed. I use this in the other paludarium with orange galactonotus darts who often jump in to catch fruit flies off the floating leaves. )The Mountain Mahogany is extremely dense and doesn't deteriorate rapidly, and neither does it float, so makes a nice submerged bridge from water to land.)

Anyway, give me your honest opinions on this. I'm fishing for ideas at this point.

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Patty
Pahsimeroi, Idaho

Dendrobates: auratus blue, auratus Ancon Hill, tinctorius azureus, leucomelas. Phyllobates: vittatus, terribilis, lugubris. Epipedobates: anthonyi tricolor pasaje. Ranitomeya fantastica, imitator, reticulata. Adelphobates castaneoticus, galactonotus. Oophagia pumilio Bastimentos. (updated systematic nomenclature)

Patty
You hit the nail on the head with that viv. My only suggestion is dont put babies in there right away, thats pretty big. These guys grow fast and I would use a smaller growout tank first so they can catch their prey easier. They wont eat the fish IMO. I quit harvesting my eggs awhile back and just let me tads fall in the water, scoop em out a couple weeks later when their bigger. That being said my tads are not disappering, so I would say your fish would be safe. The mossies do spend ALOT of time in the water so keep that in mind as far as fish that might pester/peck them. When the adults shed the tads love eating the skin. I was watching one shedding in the water awhile back and he had 5 tads hanging off him. It was hilarious.

Water filtering is done with a duetto. My tank has around 15 gallons and every couple months I pull the filter and give it a good rinse. Occasionaly scoop some fecies or dead cric's but any more the tads take care of that. Very clean frog IMO.

A viv that size could easily hold 5-6 adults comfortably. As far as tearing up the plants, well they are a decent sized tree frog and will knock them over if the are not rooted well.

Jerry

oops -around 15 gallons of water I meant, its a 45 tall

Thank you for the information, Jerry. I think they should be a lot of fun.
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Patty
Pahsimeroi, Idaho

Dendrobates: auratus blue, auratus Ancon Hill, tinctorius azureus, leucomelas. Phyllobates: vittatus, terribilis, lugubris. Epipedobates: anthonyi tricolor pasaje. Ranitomeya fantastica, imitator, reticulata. Adelphobates castaneoticus, galactonotus. Oophagia pumilio Bastimentos. (updated systematic nomenclature)

sorry about the delay, my computer is broken. i would also suggest not putting them in there right away, wait until they are at least young adults. do you have galacs in there too? i wouldn't worry about the fish, they may try to eat a couple, but the deep water would give them a big disadvantage. i put guppies in the water with my three and they got a few each, but it took about a week for them to get the hang of it. i would get the frogs used to the deep water in their temp. tank. cause your water looks pretty deep. i haven't had a whole lot of experience with these guys but i havent' needed a filter. the plants keep the water sparkling. i have newts and it's the same thing. VMF are actually pretty similiar to newts, as far as their care. very similiar except for the cold temps. i have fish so i have all those test kits for the water so i tested it for ammonia, nitrate, nitrite, pH, ect. and everything was within the normal range, with a pH of 6.9. there is also algea, java ferns, duckweed, fig, and pothos. some of them just kind of appeared? i would say go for it and good luck! were you thinking of getting them from saurian?
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RES
WTF
FBT
Russian Tortoise
Hingeback tortoise
Leos
Lawsons Dragon
Aussi
Ocelot Gecko
0.0.3 Vietnamese Mossy Treefrogs
Oregon Newt
Japanese FBN
American Bullfrog
0.0.4 D. tinctorius
D. auratus
D. leucomelas
1.1D. imitator
0.0.2 imitator intermedius
1.1.1D. lamasi
Grandis Day Gecko
Mali Uro
0.0.4 Hourglass Treefrogs
Hedgehog, bunnies, dog, fish, crawfish...

Thanks again, Otis. I already have a canister filter working on this set up, and lots of aquatic plants, plus the drip wall of Java and Ricca, so I don't think there will be a water quality issue at all. The water is 9 inches deep with some raised places at 6 and 3 inches with shallow water plants on Coco-Tek. I've recently put in some Mt. Mahogany logs that to in and out of the water and end up on the banks, because some of these are pretty steep. I have the winter months to mess around with it.

If I end up using this for mossy frogs, I won't be putting galacts in there. I was originally going to put galacts and Ancon Hill auratus in there for a trial at mixing in a large tank, but the auratus have turned out to be so shy, I'm using a smaller tank to keep them separately. The yellow galacts will probably end up in a 55 long I have set up recently. I've always been reluctant about mixing dart species, and would never mix them with frogs from an entirely different origin.

I am planning on getting them from Saurian, as I've dealt with Patrick for over 10 years now with great satisfaction, although my experiences with Black Jungle and Sean Stewart have also been good.
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Patty
Pahsimeroi, Idaho

Dendrobates: auratus blue, auratus Ancon Hill, tinctorius azureus, leucomelas. Phyllobates: vittatus, terribilis, lugubris. Epipedobates: anthonyi tricolor pasaje. Ranitomeya fantastica, imitator, reticulata. Adelphobates castaneoticus, galactonotus. Oophagia pumilio Bastimentos. (updated systematic nomenclature)

Well, a fitler certainly will not hurt. 9 inches is pretty deep, that will probably be fine for adults, but not babies. Make sure there is lots of driftwood and such the frogs can get out on. If there is then drowning should not be a problem because they are such good swimmers and can stay under for such a long time. I know what you mean with the auratus, I got one and was a little suprised at how shy they were. I didn't see mine for 3 months and thought it was dead, but a year later it's much more active. If you haven't had yours a long time they still may get more bold. THey seem to take a while to acclimate. Haven't personally got stuff from Patrick, but heard all great things, plus he was the one who first started breeding them. I got mine from Aarons frog farm cause he's so close, but I think any CB ones would be good. Good luck!
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RES
WTF
FBT
Russian Tortoise
Hingeback tortoise
Leos
Lawsons Dragon
Aussi
Ocelot Gecko
0.0.3 Vietnamese Mossy Treefrogs
Oregon Newt
Japanese FBN
American Bullfrog
0.0.4 D. tinctorius
D. auratus
D. leucomelas
1.1D. imitator
0.0.2 imitator intermedius
1.1.1D. lamasi
Grandis Day Gecko
Mali Uro
0.0.4 Hourglass Treefrogs
Hedgehog, bunnies, dog, fish, crawfish...

Thanks again, Otis. I have had my 4 blue auratus for 10 years now, and it's only in the past year they've decided I'm not the "predator" and show themselves regularly. It's an all female group, so they've never had breeding activity to stimulate them enough to ignore their fear. I just hope the Ancon Hills don't turn out to be that bad. They are one of the rare dendros that can be sexed by color pattern, and I know I have 2:2, so I'm hoping they don't decide to live in the basement for the next ten years, because I don't plan to live that long myself. Playing "God" can be frustrating when your subjects don't believe in you. I did get a photo of three of them slapping each other around about 3 years ago. The trio just stood face to face and slapped each other for about 15 minutes.

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Patty
Pahsimeroi, Idaho

Dendrobates: auratus blue, auratus Ancon Hill, tinctorius azureus, leucomelas. Phyllobates: vittatus, terribilis, lugubris. Epipedobates: anthonyi tricolor pasaje. Ranitomeya fantastica, imitator, reticulata. Adelphobates castaneoticus, galactonotus. Oophagia pumilio Bastimentos. (updated systematic nomenclature)

10 years! thats all i am going to say about that. auratus are funny that way, i've only had mine for a little over a year, but they certainly do learn very slowly. my leuc on the other hand will come out if he sees me and when i tap the FF on the tank he will hop to the top to greet them and the auratus just hides when he sees me. silly little froggie. thats really weird your frogs were "slapping" eachother, never heard of that before. i didn't know you could sex the AH by their pattern, if you look on dendroboard there an auratus campana, not really relivant, but kinda neat. good luck getting your group to breed!
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RES
WTF
FBT
Russian Tortoise
Hingeback tortoise
Leos
Lawsons Dragon
Aussi
Ocelot Gecko
0.0.3 Vietnamese Mossy Treefrogs
Oregon Newt
Japanese FBN
American Bullfrog
0.0.4 D. tinctorius
D. auratus
D. leucomelas
1.1D. imitator
0.0.2 imitator intermedius
1.1.1D. lamasi
Grandis Day Gecko
Mali Uro
0.0.4 Hourglass Treefrogs
Hedgehog, bunnies, dog, fish, crawfish...

The female Ancon Hill have green bars near their flanks while the males have spots. Patrick thinks this is the only incidence of gender pattern variations in darts.
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Patty
Pahsimeroi, Idaho

Dendrobates: auratus blue, auratus Ancon Hill, tinctorius azureus, leucomelas. Phyllobates: vittatus, terribilis, lugubris. Epipedobates: anthonyi tricolor pasaje. Ranitomeya fantastica, imitator, reticulata. Adelphobates castaneoticus, galactonotus. Oophagia pumilio Bastimentos. (updated systematic nomenclature)