Reptile & Amphibian Forums

I have a baby female agalma noneater that I've been FF mouse tail sections every four days. She did fine with the first seven but puked the eighth. So I switched to a fuzzy tail yesterday and she puked that too. I just lost a female baby agalma four days ago. Both this baby and the one I lost had both taken one pinky after their first shed and then refused food. The baby that died was thin and weak when I purchased her but this little female appears to be robust and healthy. I figure I should wait two weeks or more before FF again. I'm wondering if I should switch to a pinkie pump if a liquefied pinkie is easier to digest than a mouse tail. Or pinkie mixed with cat food? Or should I cease FF altogether. I plan on an 8 week brumation for the baby agalmas from early Jan. to March 1. I really DO NOT want to lose this little girl!!! How serious is this puking episode? I would appreciate any advice from those with experience.
Thanks, Carl

The baby agalmas are housed in soft plastic Sterilite shoe boxes with aspen shavings with one end on an Exo-Terra heating pad. The temp. at the heated end on top of the shavings is 85F. The baby that died digested her first three FF meals and then puked everything thereafter. She did not seem to absorb any nutrients from the meals she digested; she just continued going downhill. This little snake looks like an eater as she appears to be healthy and strong but now that she is puking I'm extremely worried she'll go downhill and die too.
Carl

Hey Carl,

sounds like a bummer scenario going on there. What I can say, first off, is that if you may not have experience with zonatas it is imperative to get hatchlings that are well-started. Zonatas can be tricky altogether, as they go off feed, can be finicky, etc. But once they start off they can generally do very well. The cost may be a little higher due to the occasional amount of work needed to get 'em going, but it's worth it in the long-run. I have some agalmas babies take thawed pinks straightaway, and others require months of work and brumating.

Force feeding should only commence after a diligent effort has been made to determine what variety of food it wants (i.e.: house gecko? fence lizard? live pinky? -- which, of course, really should be one that is no more than a day old since zonatas themselves are tiny -- other varieties of mouse such as deer/fiend mouse pinks? etc etc.) Having said that......

Force feeding every four days is wayyyy too soon in my opinion. Force feeding is unnatural, and can be traumatic experience for both the snake and the keeper if the keeper is not experienced with this frustrating and potentially gross process. Also, adult mouse tails contain cartilage that can be too dense for rapid digestion, so I'd recommend the tails of much smaller mice. This also, in my opinion, is not the end-all, be-all remedy to gettin' the lil' buggers to not only begin the feeding process, but also gain weight/nutritional value. So if small mouse tails are the way you're goin', then shoot to brumate for at least a couple of months. The tails should only be a supplement, in my opinion, and not a mainstream food source until voluntary feeding has been established.

What I find as a best way to force feed and provide fairly optimal nutritional value when all else has failed, is to thaw a pinky and sever the head. Hold the back of the snake's head in typical force-feed mode, and use a thin, blunt object (I have used sanitized pieces of metal such as the BACK part of a dulled razor blade and a small toddler's knife)to GENTLY pry open the baby's mouth. Using the ring finger and pinky of the hand that is holding the snake's head (requires practice and patience), hold that object carefully still and with your other hand wedge the pinky head nose-first into the snakes mouth. Once that is secured, that object should be removed simply by letting it drop out. NOW, once the head is securely in it's mouth, use the same hand that wedged the pinky head in and take a VERY blunt object (I use the round plastic tip end of a small paint brush) and gently push the head into the throat just past the head. Gently massage the head just a little ways down (half-inch) and the baby will swallow it almost always. I'd recommend placing the snake down on it's substrate to allow it to swallow and the snake's movement alone will help bring the food item down a bit. I've been using this technique for years Carl and it's never failed. I have a STUBBORN pair of Juarez agalma that began to feed and just stopped after I'd received 'em. I tossed them a couple baby fence lizards and they ate like crazy!!! But with the cooling weather here in NY the lizards were no longer available. So, this is what I resort to. And these babies are thick and doing well, with the hopes that a three-month cooling with enhance their feeding response next spring. Best of luck.

Jerry Kruse

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>>I have a baby female agalma noneater that I've been FF mouse tail sections every four days. She did fine with the first seven but puked the eighth. So I switched to a fuzzy tail yesterday and she puked that too. I just lost a female baby agalma four days ago. Both this baby and the one I lost had both taken one pinky after their first shed and then refused food. The baby that died was thin and weak when I purchased her but this little female appears to be robust and healthy. I figure I should wait two weeks or more before FF again. I'm wondering if I should switch to a pinkie pump if a liquefied pinkie is easier to digest than a mouse tail. Or pinkie mixed with cat food? Or should I cease FF altogether. I plan on an 8 week brumation for the baby agalmas from early Jan. to March 1. I really DO NOT want to lose this little girl!!! How serious is this puking episode? I would appreciate any advice from those with experience.
>>Thanks, Carl

I agree with J Kruse:
>>Force feeding every four days is wayyyy too soon in my opinion. Force feeding is unnatural, and can be traumatic experience for both the snake and the keeper if the keeper is not experienced with this frustrating and potentially gross process. Also, adult mouse tails contain cartilage that can be too dense for rapid digestion, so I'd recommend the tails of much smaller mice. This also, in my opinion, is not the end-all, be-all remedy to gettin' the lil' buggers to not only begin the feeding process, but also gain weight/nutritional value. So if small mouse tails are the way you're goin', then shoot to brumate for at least a couple of months. The tails should only be a supplement, in my opinion, and not a mainstream food source until voluntary feeding has been established.

I would brumate as soon as possible for about 4-6 weeks then try feeding again. Hide the the pink under a small object close to its hide, or even in its hide, so the snake finds it when foraging. I've found that they will feed on their own, it just takes time. As long as they have good weight, they will be fine.

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R.Bichlers Colubrids
http://www.webspawner.com/users/rbichler/index.html

In my experience, agalmas puke more easily than any other Lampropeltis. Reasons I think, vary a lot. As I see it some agalmas will often puke if they get more than one food item. They also seem to puke if temps are too high and I'm beginning to wonder if they perhaps have much slower metabolism than other Lampropeltis living in areas closer to sea level, making high temps something bad.

I too have had one agalma that died although eating the whole time. When I got him he only puked once and a while when he took more than one food item, but after about a year in my care, he started to puke after every other feeding and finally he died. I had his feces investigated but there were nothing unusual to be found. I started to suspect anaerobic bacteria in his intestins and gave Flagyl orally but with no result. This male was born 1999 and problems started 2005.

I have six young agalmas, all born 2005 and they occassionally puked when they were smaller but now they don't. However I never feed more than one food item att the time.

Pic shows my largest 2005 female, bred by Thomas Steffen in Germany.

http://i190.photobucket.com/albums/z6/peter54_bucket/Alma071016.jpg?t=1196022733