Reptile & Amphibian Forums

alright,i know that spotteds dont get very big,but how big(roughly)does a female need to be for breeding?my female(parker) is cb04,and her shell is almost 4" end to end.she was a VERY slow started yearling when i got her(halfway between a quarter & a half dollar around).should i wait another year before considering breeding her,or should i start looking for a boyfriend for her?thanks for any help!
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0.1 cb spotted turtle (parker)
0.0.6 wc baby stinkpots
0.0.1 cb peninsula cooter (gizmo)
0.0.1 wc yellow belly slider (snaps)

0.0.2 wc halloween crabs
0.2 irritating cats (sassy & miley)
2.0 cb children (sidney,12 & kaelan,4)
0.1 wc wife (danae,age withheld due to fears for personal safety)

Sounds about the right size. However i always waited until my females laid a clutch of eggs unfertilized. Then I knew they were ready. By the way I want to post some pics but when I try to upload them it says the pics are too big. I dont know how to down size them

I'd be cautious about letting a female produce infertile clutches-they are more difiicult to lay and so could lead to an egg binding situation. I allow my herps access to mates as soon as they could conceivably be large enough, on the theory that, in the wild,they would definitely be able to find a mate as soon as they were capable of reproduction.

One easy way to downsize a pic is to email it to yourself. Most photo programs have a "resizing" feature as well....
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Brad Chambers

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Thanks for info. I am hesitant of throwing my smaller females in with my males as they are very aggressive. Thanks again

That's a valid concern-my group is kept to one male per 6 females. Sort of spreads out the mating aggression. Also the water is no deeper than about 5-6 inches to assure that the females can reach the surface during mating. Seems to work-no fatalities yet!
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Brad Chambers

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"infertile clutches-they are more difiicult to lay and so could lead to an egg binding situation"

Hey Brad. That's a new one to me. It sounds crazy enough to be true. Any ideas where I can read up on it? Thanks

Keep in mind that I'm primarily a snake guy-but among lizard and snake breeders this is pretty common knowledge. For example, I've bred veiled chameleons for many years, and know from personal experience that if you miss the "mating window" with a female, you're in trouble. She will usually develop an infertile clutch, and half the time be unable to properly pass the eggs-leading to either a dead female or a high vet bill! The same can happen with snakes.

If you do a search of "infertile eggs" you should get quite a few references.
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Brad Chambers

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I posed the question to a reptile Veterinary Specialist and she had never heard of that phenomenon, and could not think of a possible mechanism. She will so some research.

I searched several ways...nothing.

Thanks anyway.

Lol-I wouldn't talk to vets about reptile breeding!They usually have enough trouble with simple maintenance advice!

The mechanism is that infertile eggs are much softer and more flaccid than fertile eggs, so the peristaltic muscles can't get a purchase on them.

Did you search the KS forums? I just did and got a lot of results for both "infertile eggs" and "egg binding". The trick is to not use those " " and "-" symbolsw in front of your words!

As I said, it's common knowledge among large reptile breeders-post a question on the corn or kingsnake forums...
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Brad Chambers

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I was looking exclusively for information on turtles. I searched mainly the internet overall and scientific publications. Information on fora can be important, especially regarding husbandry, but I need a little more meat for a topic such as this. The mechanism you described would be a good start. I am wary, though, of unseen correlations. For example, a female reptile awaiting a breeding cycle will typically get advanced care in preparation and then during gravidity. In turtles especially, calcium supplementation is increased. A female laying infertile eggs may not have received the added care, and complications may result from this lack and not from the simple fact that the eggs were infertile.

I'll keep looking. Thanks for the info., Brad. I am fairly well hooked into the "turtle community" and this took me quite by suprise. I would tend to think that, if applicable to turtles, it would have come up with myself or other acquaintances before. Of course, it wouldn't be the first or last time that important information has eluded me.

I agree, in general, concerning Veterinarians. This individual, however, is very much above average.

I can give a personal observation of a situation involving a turtle. This past Spring we had a female slider which had somehow contrived to avoid any males and developed an infertile clutch. She had great difficulty passing these eggs, and we had to eventually resort to a dose of oxytocin. Even then it took her several days to expel the last one.

If you are interested in reading about this phenomena in other reptiles I can provide several references. Sitting here on my desk at the moment is the AVS book "Care and Breeding of Jackson's, Veiled, and Parson's Chameleons. The problem of retained infertile eggs is mentioned in two different articles by two different Authors (Ron Tremper and John Annis)in this book alone.

I'll be speaking with Ron Tremper (who is certainly one of the most experienced chelonian breeders in this country) in the next few days, and I'll ask his opinion. I'll post his response here.
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Brad Chambers

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Ron agreed that, in his experience, turtles carrying infertile eggs were much more likely to have egg binding problems. I'll ask him for some literature citations, if possible.
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Brad Chambers

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Perhaps turtles that have egg binding problems are more prone to having infertile eggs. See my problem?

I have adopted out adult female turtles to novice keepers and have recommended that they not breed them. I would certainly like to warn them if there was a significant threat to their pet's survival.

I do really appreciate your help. I'll keep looking, and gladly sign in and eat crow should I find anything.

You seem like a very knowledgeable and dedicated keeper. Thanks again.

As I said, I can only speak from a lot of experience concerning snakes and lizards. I'll keep looking as well....

What we really need, of course, are controlled experiments.
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Brad Chambers

The Avalanche has already started-it is too late for the pebbles to vote....