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Is there any way anyone knows how to naturastically seperate different species of darts in a very large tank that will be safe for them? I have a 3' wide tank that's 18" deep and pretty tall that I want to set up natural. I would like to have several species together but don't want them in contact with eachother. I have experience with tincs, auratus, and azureus. Any help will be appreciated. If it's not possible I understand, but I'm up for a challenge!

If you don't know what I'm trying to do is keep them from mixing together without using a barrier that goes from top to bottom front to back. Like an open air barrier. I think I can figure out with the background (faux background)and bottom, by installing dividers that go vertical and than upsidedown, and disquise them as caves, logs, and rock ledges etc. Having trouble figuring out how to keep them from going across the front glass. I need something they can't stick to lol. If this isn't possible is mixing a few different together that big of a deal? I've done it in the past but it seems that it's not recommended. I was thinking about maybe 1 or 2 tincs and an azereus or leuc. (all dendrobates). Possibly 1 or 2 auratus, but since they are shy it might not work. The tank with all the measurements seems to be 90 gallons. ANY help is greatly appreciated!!!

You might try to separate them with a relatively deep, (about 9 inches) open waterway surrounding two islands of land areas. You could put some small fish in the "aquarium" portion. This is no guarantee that they won't either fall in the water, get out on the wrong side, or deliberately swim to the other island, climb across on the glass, etc., but it's about the only thing I can think of. Then again, if you put in aquatic plants, the frogs might just hop across on the floating leaves. I actually built something like this from a 180 gallon tank, only it had a more or less solid background with a drip wall of fern bark panel in the middle back ground, intending to put some yellow galacts on one side and some Ancon Hill auratus on the other, before deciding to use it for Vietnamese mossies (and fish) instead.

Nearly all darts are rather efficient glass climbers, but some are less likely to do it than others. In my experience the Phyllobates terribilis are unlikely to hike themselves up the glass, especially if they are well fed, and don't go leaping into waterways. Adult Dendrobates leucomelas rarely climb glass as adults, but may go into water readily. It would also probably be relatively safe to mix these two, as they will not interbreed and are generally peaceful and relatively unterritorial. (I say "relatively," because they do seem to get along fairly well in groups of their own species.)

I've also thought of mixing something like Dendrobates imitator in an area with a lot of epiphytic bromeliads and something like an azureus pair with a large bottom "footprint," which they prefer. In a large enough tank, they may simply avoid each other if the azureus are given some nice large leaves to lay eggs on and a bit of climbing space, as well. It's been my experience that the imitators prefer staying at the top if they have plenty of background and bromeliad cups, while the azureus, although they do climb some, mostly hang out lower down. While the azureus are territorial among themselves, they may not recognize imitators as a threat, or even be somewhat intimidated to stay away from them.

If you try anything like this, just be sure to keep a close eye on them and remove any animals that appear to have a problem, and have a convenient tank set up to separate them into if this occurs. Mixing has been done successfully, mostly in relatively large tanks, especially in Europe. Zoos do it a lot, but they have more resources than most hobbyists.

This is pure speculation on my part. I've never actually mixed dart species of any sort, although some very well known and reliable breeders aren't always against it.

Having a lot of visual barriers, not crowding, lots of space, seems to be the answer to most mixes. In mixing two different genera of Dendrobatidae, you don't have to worry about interbreeding and producing unwanted hybrids that might be introduced into the hobby as something they are not. The main ethical concern with this is mixing different populations of the same species and creating hybrids that can't be traced to the original source, or creating "designer frogs" from the various color morphs and closely related species that might interbreed successfully.

Other than a clear glass barrier down the middle, siliconed to both sides, I can't think of a single way to absolutely separate them under all circumstances.

Let us know what you come up with.
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Patty
Pahsimeroi, Idaho

Dendrobates: auratus blue, auratus Ancon Hill, tinctorius azureus, leucomelas. Phyllobates: vittatus, terribilis, lugubris. Epipedobates: anthonyi tricolor pasaje. Ranitomeya fantastica, imitator, reticulata. Adelphobates castaneoticus, galactonotus. Oophagia pumilio Bastimentos. (updated systematic nomenclature)

Thanks for the suggestions and ideas. I'm sure it's going to be hard or nearly impossible, but I will still try to figure something out. I like the island idea a lot, but it still leaves the possibility of the glass and of course swimming. The glass seems to be the hardest part of the whole thing. I had tincs that were on the glass almost all day!

On a side note, besides putting more terrirtorial species with shy guys, is the only negative problem them breeding together? I could stick with same sex frogs if that's the only other concern. What about tincs and azeureus? Or tincs and leucs (that's what I was looking at for a combination as far as a stark contrast in colors)? Compatable?

Tinctorius and azureus are actually different color populations of the same specie and have been put together in the newest nomenclature under tinctorius. The Dendrobates tinctorius group are one of the more territorial frogs, and the general advice is that they are best kept in mated pairs or singles. In my own experience, it is the females that fight with each other, (reportedly to the death in some instances, although I've never let it go this far,) so perhaps two males of different morphs (color populations) might work out with no female present, such as an azureus and one of the another color populations. This is just speculation on my part, accounting for some experiences from other people I have merely read, although I have had sibling male tinctorius get along together in small groups with a lot of space. Or perhaps with two males and a single female from three different color populations, you could simply pull any eggs and not raise these. That would solve the ethical problem of coming up with designer tincts, and give you three different color morphs of same species frogs about the same size. Later, if you decided to breed, you could match them up with new mates from the same morph color in separate tanks. Adult tincts are relatively easy to sex by toe pads and body habitus.

You won't get a lot of positive advice about mixing darts, at least not on this side of the pond, and you may find some people who virtually foam at the mouth when it's mentioned. If you would like to contact me by a private e-mail message, I can give you the name of a well known and reliable breeder that doesn't totally nix the idea, who might have some more suggestions. You really need to talk to someone who has actually done it successfully. I've simply never tried it, just built another tank for each new species and color morphs, although I like to keep an open mind about the possibility.
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Patty
Pahsimeroi, Idaho

Dendrobates: auratus blue, auratus Ancon Hill, tinctorius azureus, leucomelas. Phyllobates: vittatus, terribilis, lugubris. Epipedobates: anthonyi tricolor pasaje. Ranitomeya fantastica, imitator, reticulata. Adelphobates castaneoticus, galactonotus. Oophagia pumilio Bastimentos. (updated systematic nomenclature)

I sent you a message . BTW, I might actually stick with a less agressive species like leucs or such and have a small group of them. But I still don't want to dismiss the possibility of mixing. I am kind of giving up on the idea of trying to seperate them. They are just too darn sticky I even thought of having running water down the front glass, but it would look kind of funny I think. So scratch that idea. Interesting about the tincs and azereus being together. It's been a while since I've owned darts so I have to come back up to speed on where everything's at.

On a side note, I'm going to be getting 1 or 2 froglets, and don't know if I should throw them in that big tank right away. I'm afraid they won't be able to find food. Do you think it'll be fine to drop them in and maybe use an orange on a little dish to keep the flies in one spot? Or should I use like 10 gallon for the time being? I would like them in the big tank, but health is first.

Definitely keep them in a smaller, more simple nursery tank for a few weeks, especially if you get froglets. The nursery tanks not only help you monitor their eating and health, but also gives them a better start at getting used to your presence, so they'll be bolder in the long run. If you do decide to check for parasites, which some people recommend, although I don't do it routinely, it's also a lot easier to collect a fresh sample from a specific frog. Most breeders recommend keeping them individually in separate small containers. I like the 1 1/2 gallon glass containers with the fitted glass tops for this. (Tops may be sold separately.) You need to be careful about some of these as they may have a cut-out on one corner that the frogs can escape from unless you tape over it. You can just use a simple substrate such as an inch or so of long brown sphagnum moss, a little leaf litter, with a couple of plant cuttings for them to climb on and hide under the leaves. I've never been a fan of using paper towels, as these get dirty and need changing every other day or so.

I'm not sure why the original azureus were designated as a separate specie from tinctorius, but it's been pretty well established in the past few years that they are not, although they are still sold that way by most breeders. The newest nomenclature that has further divided the Dendrobates into other genera such as Oophagia for obligate egg feeders, Ranitomeya for thumbnail egg feeders, Adelphobates for the castaneoticus, galactonotus and some others, is still pretty controversial, and will probably go through some other changes before being totally accepted, especially since other families have been created, as well. It's a bit confusing for those of us who aren't particularly well versed in taxonomy and are used to the old names. I think most hobbyists will stick with the old designations for some time to come. Fortunately, most of the species designations have been kept in tact, with the endings changed for agreement. i.e. Ranitomeya reticulata vs. Dendrobates reticulatus.
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Patty
Pahsimeroi, Idaho

Dendrobates: auratus blue, auratus Ancon Hill, tinctorius azureus, leucomelas. Phyllobates: vittatus, terribilis, lugubris. Epipedobates: anthonyi tricolor pasaje. Ranitomeya fantastica, imitator, reticulata. Adelphobates castaneoticus, galactonotus. Oophagia pumilio Bastimentos. (updated systematic nomenclature)