Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hi everyone

I have a big back yard, all covered with tick grass, and I want a tortoise to be in there. I have been researching the Sulcata tortoise and I have read in several websites that they usually burrow and make holes. Is it really a problem? Have anyone had an experience with this that could share it with me?

Thanks!
Jose M Cantu

I let my sulcata, Ozzy run around the yard for about 5 hours after I get home from school, and he never has tried to get out. Of course, I check on him once or twice a day, though. Where are you located? I have a friend in Seminole, Florida, Ken, who owns a pet store called Pet Biz-Ar, and he has two large sulcatas, a male and female that freeroam his yard all day, have no pen, and they never try to dig. If you're in Florida, you can call him at 1-727-398-1700.

I have 6 free roaming in a large outdoor enclosure all the time and Ive never had a problem with any of them digging either. I have heard a lot of stories about them digging but mine have never even tried to.

is digging a problem? i have 8 spurred torts in the back yard and i have diffrent behaivure from all of them. i have two that burrow. now they are not trying to dig out of their enclosure but rather making kind of a house. the two that do it are smaller torts, none of my larger ones have ever done it but they have gone into a corner and thrown dirt in the air and on their backs. the larger ones (30 to 100lbs) have a heated thermostatic shed in which they go into. i think this is why they donot burrow. because they feel comfortable being enclosed in there and therefore have no reason to dig. now the two that do are an unrelated ivory strand i donot think at all that albino has anything to do with it. their enclocure has a larger number of torts in it (burms rfoots boxies) and less hideing spots. i have hibusces bushes and wood crates with holes in them in which they retire into at night. it isnt like they are just digging random holes like a dog or anything they use them all the time, everybody does. the only thing i can see as problematic with it is if a 50lb plus dug one and for some reason you had to pull him out in a hurry like a freeze was coming unexpectidly. they might stay in the burrow as they would in the wild in cold weather. you might be thinking i can lift 50 or 100lbs but thats not the real issue. the thing is they dig the burrow custome to their shells and when you pull them out depending on which way they are faceing they will spread their legs out and grab the sides of the burrow and anybody who has been around large sulcs will attest to their streingth, so a shovel could be in order in this case. but if a big freeze is comeing you can lay some plywood over the hole and block the entrance. filling it isnt usually a good to do unless it is in a low area that collects water runoff. i kind of like the burrows it is fun to watch the digging activity. now if i could just figure out why my male emys emys spends his day rakeing the yard with his front legs!

You keep redfoots and boxies in with your sulcatas too? People complain and harass me about that all the time. I was at a reptile expo and some guy complained to me when I was telling one of the venders about my sulcatas and redfoots living together. This dude walked up to me and said, "I have Class III permits to sell those animals, and I know about them, and it breaks my heart even to see red and yellow-foots living together." I said, "Well, then turn around and walk the other way. I wasn't talking to you to begin with".

lol, a friend of mine that keeps box turtles and red foots together said the same thing to me last time I talked to him, he got scolded at a convention just like you did. I personally don't see a problem with it if your not having any problems with them being together. My 6 sulcatas don't live with any other turtles but they are in the same enclosure as a capybara and a Patagonian cavie and I don't have any problems. My capybara frequently sits on top of my big male sulcata and goes for rides.

It's not a problem for me, keeping multiple species together. I think it's B.S. how people react to a situation like that. I mean, it's not like I'm going to put a hatchling redfoot in with a fifty pound sulcata. And, why don't they ever attack Alligator Adventure in Myrtle Beach, SC, or Gatorland, since they keep multiple tortoise species together. Hell, Gatorland even keeps gopher tortoises and Florida box turtles together. They got an award for breeding a Keystone species even though that happened.

Florida Box Turtles and Florida Gopher Tortoises are sympatric species, meaning they occupy the same range and much of the same habitat. In this respect, they can generally be kept together, especially if given a sizable habitat in which to roam. Having lost several tortoises from what I can only deduce as being a condition of cross-contamination, I am personally against keeping different species together. Also, having practiced the tradition myself, I find keeping species separate groups to be the preferred way to go.

Keeping species separate is not only about disease prevention, which granted is poorly understood, but I always found the practice to be one of safety. Certain species of tortoise are highly aggressive and should be kept singly. I have a large male sulcata who enjoys mounting and battling everything with a shell. Given the extreme damage he is capable of inflicting, I consider it unwise to offer him any pen mates. I recently acquired a young male black greek tortoise who does nothing but fight. He even attacks a dead RES shell I found one day on a Sabinal river bank. I have to keep him housed by himself as well. Certain tortoises are far too aggressive to be kept with others, and as these animals are not by any means social, I see no problem in fixing separate quarters for such creatures.

Now, I must admit that I have no experience keeping red foots and sulcatas together, but I have kept both species, and their care requirements are quite different. Sulcatas prefer it dry (though they can live in humid weather, I realize), graze on grasses and coarse weeds, grow to be large, aggressive animals. Red foots prefer moderately humid environs with standing water (a sulcata no-no, given their tendency to rapidly befoul and trounce everything in their path), mixed diets of lush greens, fruit, and marginal meat content, and are generally exceedingly curious and nonaggressive. Are sulcatas aggressive toward redfoots? Has anyone seen a situation of such? I've read of sulcatas pummeling aldabras to death, and I've seen footage of male sulcatas attempting to mate with female leopards (a behavior that should not be encouraged, in my opinion, as these species are separated by both habitational niches and geographic features). Both species also have a tendency toward corphagous behavior (the fecal consumption habit you mentioned in regard to dogs). How can you be sure they aren't consuming one another's leavings? How quickly could disease spread in such a situation? Though I'm no pathologist and don't know the answers to these questions, this seems like a big risk to me. Also, how do you keep the sulcatas from consuming too much fruit? When you feed the redfoots high protein products, do the sulcatas get their share of the meat they are not supposed to have? Or do you feed the animals separately? Certainly, this may not be a problem for you guys, but I don't think one can say this for certain about every situation in which keepers would be keeping these species together.

Now, I'm not the type of self-righteous idiot who goes about telling people they're the devil for keeping different species together, because this is their perrogative, and they may be right (there could be nothing demonstrably wrong with doing this). We live in a free country, and so long as there is no law against it, I can't even see anything legitimately wrong with even going so far as eating chelonia (so long as they were legally acquired, legally and humanely butchered, and not endangered). However, as this is a forum where we may freely express our opinions and concerns regarding the keeping of sulcatas and leopards, I have to say that I don't agree with keeping nonsympatric species together. I find it especially disagreeable when it comes to other more delicate species. I could never justify keeping a radiated tortoise, impressed tortoise, star tortoise, gopher/desert/Texas tortoise, pancake tortoise, South African Tent tortoise, Hingeback or Mediterranean tortoise in a mixed group. These species are far too rare and sensitive, though among the Testudo complex, the hybridization problem combined with the behavioral incompatibility is simply too great. I can tell you from experience that Greeks and Marginateds do not get along. I've raised these species together in the past, and though they appear to get along just fine as hatchlings, these animals do grow up, and the male greeks will butt and strike with their gular scutes while the marginated males make every attempt to bite and immobilize their opponent. Real damage can be wrought in these situations, and rather than keeping antibacterial cream at close reach, I find it much more effective to eliminate the chances of any combat injury entirely by maintaining males separately and/or singly depending upon aggression displayed.

Whether one decides to keep species together or not is their perrogative, but my hope is that anyone who does this does so responsibly, just as I'm sure we all do. Quarantine of new arrivals (especially wild-caught new arrivals), disease detection and prevention, and minimization of aggression and behavioral incompatibility should always be standard practice for anyone keeping these animals.

T.G.

what kind of torts were you housing together when you lost them?

when you see agressiveness in something you are housing together its kind of a no brainer that you need to seperate that. like you; i have a golden greek that is just bruital towards others. one day during the winter of 05 i observed him repeatidly ramming one of my spurrthighs (female 4lb), look on you tube under turtle fights and there is one displaying similar behavure. so he is now in a better place. just kidding! he is in my room living it up how he likes it. i have never seen spurred torts being aggressive towards each other its been not an issue thus far for me. cross that bridge when it comes. the temp. was supposed to drop here in houston tonight so i checked the thermostate in the shed to make sure it was in working order and was laying in the grass today with the large spurrs when i thought of putting my male burmese 11lbs in with the large spurrthighs. so i did. i observed them and about a half hour into it i was offering them both some carrots and the burm started grunting and head bobing. i have seen this behavure before when he persues females so i watched out of curiosity to see if it was it or if he was being aggressive. his mannerisms were typical burm mtn tort. mateing stuff except one thing he raised his body way high this i had never seen and could be a sign of aggressiveness. needless to say everybody to their regular spots.

now as far as reds and spurrs together my reds and spurrs are fed seporately. sulcs eat mostely grass anyways and fruit is offered only in portions that my reds will eat in about a half hour or so. now as far as the protien my reds eat that so fast that the sulcs never know its there. i dont even know that the rate and eagerness that they accept it is normal. i limit their intake of protien to one ten minuite meal a week and an occasional minnow here there. there humidity requirements are met with mulch that i wet once a week or as needed the sulcatas will go in the mulch too but i dont see it as a problem. they stay mostly either i a burrow or under a wood crate. indoors yes i will admit i have seen corphagousfrom a red to a spurr. outdoors i have never seen this and i am out there a lot. reguardless its always good to take a sample to the vet every now and again. i personally dont believe in keeping wc torts. i have friends that do and it dosent bother me.

what signs did you start noticing when you lost thoes torts? i have lost torts too for various reasons. in 04 i lost a greek ( one of a pair) we live and learn. its what keeps having captive torts. interesting.

Lost three sulcatas one winter following exposure to a leopard tortoise that must've been a passive mycoplasma carrier, so I've theorized. At the time, I'd had this wild-caught leopard living in isolation away from my captive bred sulcatas. She had a slightly runny nose when I got her, which I attributed to allergens and the stress of being in a new climate. After having kept her through the spring, summer, fall and winter, I figured the following spring was an ideal time to introduce her to her fellow cows. Spring time in South Texas can be tricky, and it often experiences severe fluctuations in temperature and temp variation. As a result, I would allow the tortoises run of the pen during the heat of the day, after which I would collect them and place them into a series of kiddie pools in a heated room. Having already introduced the leopard to the group, I kept them together, both indoors and out. Over the course of a week, all of my sulcatas fell ill. I separated the leopard to her own enclosure in my own bedroom and returned her outdoor excursions to the quarantine pen. I then scheduled an appointment with the vet. He couldn't find definitive evidence of cross contamination, though his swab of the leopard's nares showed the same bacteria as was spewing from the sulcatas (this doesn't necessarily prove anything, as they may have come from the sulcatas). His course of baytril ultimately proved useless, and several boarding fees, lab fees, and med costs later, the animals simply grew weak from going off feed and died over the course of a few weeks. All died within three weeks to a shade over a month of initial treatment. The leopard is still alive in the hands of a friend of mine, who was interested in it as a backyard pet. Like clockwork, she becomes ill during the winter, bubbling at the nose, going off feed. But, every spring, she's back to grazing and being as shy as any tortoise I've seen.

You are wise to have never kept wild caught tortoises. I have no wild caught tortoises in my collection anymore, but when I did, I would always have problems with disease. I suppose such is why I'm so wary of it. As for the sulcatas, they can be a handful when they get big, I'll tell ya. But hey, why else do we keep them? I guess I see in a sulcata what Steve Irwin saw in salty crocs or what David Barker sees in retics. They're awesome tortoises.

T.G.

Great post Tglazie! Well written.
Now for my 5 cents - my 4 year old Sulcata started digging her burrow about 2 months ago and it's now 10 feet deep. I'm very proud of her..ha ha.
I actually prefer that my sulcatas burrow since they can thermoregulate their temps better when it's up and over 110 degrees here in AZ.

Keep in my that MOST Sulcatas burrow down to regulate their temps, they generally do not burrow down 10 feet deep, over and under your neighbors yard and back up again. The burrows will go down and sometimes to the side but they usually don't come back up again, they have their one entrance/exit hole.

truth be known i have 3 boxies, 2 red footers, 4 sulcs, 2 burmese browns, 1 american woody, 1 butterphase lepard, and a mata mata all living in harmony in that pen. i would like to split them further. the mata is only in there limtedly just for the sun before i change the water and goldfish (redfoots lovem for treats). space right now dosent allow me to. i would like to put the boxies in with the woody and an occasional visit from mr. mata, the red foots in with the burms, small sulcs and leaprds, and then big sulcs. right now just two pens but thats ok. i plan this summer to be moveing to the country where i can have some more space. as far as puting torts together and people saying this or that, this is our hobby. this is what keeps it interesting for us. so if you go to a expo and somebody wants to tell you how to keep your torts and where to put them they are missing the point of the hobby. i have read that parisites from one spacies to the next can be a big time problem but who really knows. its kind of like years ago i worked in an automotive shop and the shop owner was into raceing he had his raceing friends at the shop and his forems he went to to talk to other enthusests (www.hotrodgossip.com). we talked about mtr. combos and some of the things that some people said was a bad idea turned out to kick serious ass at the track and put us ahead of the competition.

oh ya sulcs and dogs i have found that to be a bad combo. patagonian i saw one of thoes at a pet store here in houston. what a weird little creature. i saw they were feeding it fresh fruit. is that its diet? how much does it eat a week and how big do they get. when i move to the country i want some wallbys. how does a patagonian move?

I have chihuahuas, and the tortoise poses more danger to them then they pose to the sulcatas. The sulcata is just fascinated by the walking furry things. He'll walk up to them, sniff them, and everything.

I'm sure you saw the patagonian cavie at S&S, right? Ive bought one from them before. They mainly eat veggies and alot of hey/grass,my capybaras and cavies are both surprisingly fond of mazuri tortoise diet, lol. Thats part of the reason I put them all together though, their diets are basically the same but I feed my mammals horse pellets as well, basically the same stuff you would get at a petting zoo. They don't eat that much and they are the 3rd biggest rodent in the world so they can get pretty large. They can walk, run, take long leaps or hop around like rabbits, how they move depends on how fast they want to go.

This depends on the soil condition, the shelter provisioned, and the sulcata in question. Not all sulcatas dig. Most do in the abasence of a shelter. Those that do but can't due to excessively rocky earth beneath clay soil, ofcourse, don't dig. Such is the situation here in South Texas. The ground is notable for it's thin layer of topsoil, over a thin layer of clay over a thick shelf of limestone. My sulcatas couldn't dig a burrow if they tried. Whenever I've had to plant a shrub, I generally needed a shovel, pickaxe, and iron rod to remove enough stone from the ground to provide a hole for a hibiscus/mulberry/althea plant to sit in. Depending on where you live, your tortoise will find burrowing to be of varying difficulty. Whether or not your animal proceeds from there is up to it.

T.G.

THanks everyone for your replies!!

I live in south Texas too! I live in Edinburg. Well I hope my backyard is suitable for the little sulcata. I'll be looking for one at the san antonio reptile expo in June.

THanks for you all comments

Jose M Cantu