Reptile & Amphibian Forums

hi, i have just purchased a new addition to my family, that being and horned lizard, i know they will eat small crickets, waxworm and meal worm but i would like to keep him as with all my animals as natural as possible, however i live in the UK and am having difficulty find a stockist for harvester ants! PLEASE would someone be able to advise me on were i may be able to order them from and also some tips on keepin him as healthy as possible.
thanks you in advance

antsalive.com used to list a link for a UK ant supplier, but I'm not seeing that link now.
I have been thinking about a way to supply ants overseas. The issue is that I can't ship them live. Which leaves only a couple of options that may or may not work. If you are interested in trying them, drop me an email or a PM.
For general care info you can check out our website.
Thanks

-----
Phrynosoma.Org
Phrynosoma.Com

hi thanks for your reply, there was a link for ants in the uk on the antsalive webs site however they didnt list harvester ants, i have emailed them and awaiting a reply. i am pretty new to the HL i hve looked up and he is a cornutum species is there any information you can give me on keeping him, i own a leopard geko colony and also had a rescue iguana, i am not unknowlegable as a im currently studying my degree but this species seems to be pretty rare in the uk so finding someone to share tips with is proving to be quite difficult. i did research him before i got him and a have got him in a 4ft tank with as natural as possible surroundings and temp.
i read on a site that i could supplement his diet with formic acid which he would get form the harvester ants, is this true and if so how do i do this.
sorry to ask lots of things at once but i would like to do this properly and have his welfare at heart.
thank you again
ps how do i add a picture to this site

The ants they sell in the UK should be fine for your lizard. There are many folks in the UK are other areas that use these ants for horned lizards with good success. I believe they are lasius niger if I remember correctly.
Do not use acids with your lizards. This is an old claim and has not been proven or documented by any reliable sources that I am aware of. It is a long standing argument that is often quoted but never proven.

You can find cornutum specific husbandry info on the phrynosoma.org website. Look under the "Husbandry" links. It is best to read all the husbandry links as they all have differing information and it's all valuable. The hernandesi info would be the least important in your particular case.
-----
Phrynosoma.Org
Phrynosoma.Com

European alternatives most popular in use are Lasius niger or Formica rufa being used by some in UK from some coorespondence I have had, though they are not its natural prey and I can't speak to recommending specifically F. rufa. They are a more predatory species and nutritional content is probably pretty far off. The Lasius niger also is heavy on carbohydrate content due to their feeding habits, which I don't think is ideal either.

The best recommendation I could give if you can't get Pogonomyrmex, is any number of the numerous European seed harvesters of the Messor genus ( ex. Messor rufitarsis, M. structor, M. barbarus ). These ants would contain more of the plant proteins and free fatty acids, which would be closer in relation to the diet of N. American red harvester ants, which do not feed largely on animal protein or sugar rich fruits; preferring seeds, leaves, and grasses for the most part.

-----
freewebs.com/wichitafallsreptilerescue

groups.yahoo.com/group/HornedLizards

hi thanks for your reply with regards to the sp of ants i can get in the UK, i hav found a supply of Myrmica rubra from blades biological (a site directed to from ants alive)would these be ok for HL.
thanks for your time

M. ruba, or European fire ants as they are sometimes known, are considered an invasive species in the US. They are reported in experiments conducted by Schmidt ( 1980s? ) to have a formic acid venom with a sting comparable to a "mini-Pogonomyrmex". They are scavengers and predators primarily however, taking honeydew from aphids, as well as sweet secretions from plants.

Though the formic acid content is beneficial for supplemental hydration, being oxidized into water, salt, and CO2, and having certain benficial pathogenic antimicrobial effects in the gastric system; M. ruba are not primarily seed harvesters, therefore their other nutritional components will differ from Pogonomyrmex. To what degree this is significant I cannot say; but, another important component ( and probably the most important component in the diet of Phrynosoma as it conerns harvester ants as a fuel source ) is the essential free fatty acid constituents isolated from and available in Pogonomyrmex harvester ants due to their diet.

L. niger is primarily used in supplement along with a wide variety of other prey AND that it is primarily used as food for P. platyrhinos, which are the most common Phrynosoma traded in Europe.

P. cornutum are quite rare in Europe ( because they are protected in most places ), and their diet differs somewhat in the wild from platyrhinos. Though both platyrhinos and cornutum dine on Pogonomyrmex in the wild; platyrhinos also dines largely on honeypot ants, and other ants which are widely available in the desert. The SW desert is a place where many species of ants can thrive in underground colonies, where other types of invertebrate prey are not as abundant. Consequently, I would expect a certain higher variability in the acceptance of platyrhinos to differing ant species that may be available to them. My captive experience with this species seems to support that, in that they are not as fussy over offered ant species as cornutum can be.

I would not extrapolate necessarily that L. niger or other ants will be preferred by cornutum. P. cornutum dine on a wide variety of non-ant invertebrate prey in areas where Pogonomyrmex are not as dense, but in my experience they certainly seem to prefer Pogonomyrmex to other ants, and often reject ants unknown to them. They do inhabit parts of the SW desert, but more south-easterly than platyrhinos and more areas of the plains and east of the rockies, where vegetation is often more dense, humidity often "relatively" higher, and non-ant insect variety more abundant, as these areas typically encounter more summer rainfall. Platyrhinos are typically a west of the rockies and extreme southwestern species, more abundant in places like the mojave.

I would advise caution ( and try in small numbers first ) any genera other than Pogonomyrmex, or other ant species native to the SW United States, which Phrynosoma are KNOWN to forage on. Some genera of eastern ants have been known to cause death in young HLs in captivity, possibly due to release of volatile organic compounds, such as ketone based alarm pheremones.

Again, the best advice I could give you other than trying to find a source of imported Pogonomyrmex, is to use a very similar seed and plant harvester genera such as Messor, or possibly a species such as L. niger, which has been tested by long term keepers of Phrynosoma in Europe. You may want to find some other keepers, but understand that most are going to have platyrhinos, and it would benefit you to find someone with cornutum that has been maintained in good health for at least a year or more on European fare. I have a lot of experience with cornutum, but only on ant species native to the US.

-----
freewebs.com/wichitafallsreptilerescue

groups.yahoo.com/group/HornedLizards