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Two of my females are gravid again and I'm not happy about it. They have no business laying a second clutch with the body weight they lost after the their first clutches. Oh well. They weren't with any males either after they laid their first ones, but I guess that doesn't stop them from retaining sperm and pooping out some more eggs. Now I will have to hold them back next year most likely. I became suspious a few days ago when I tried to feed them. They normally are coming out of the cage mouths' agape knowing they are going to get fed. When one didn't eat and the other very reluctantly ate, I knew I had two more gravid snakes.
Juarez Wonders

Gee Alan that's too bad, lol.

That is frustrating!

I wonder . . . if they were a little less robust going into the first clutch, perhaps their bodies wouldn’t be telling them right now to “do it again”?

Hi Ryan,

I can't conclude that simple body mass would be a factor. Sperm retention is sperm retention, and it's been seen in several snake species (I believe first with corn snakes). Unless there is empirical data on this, I think we can chalk it up to strong, viable sperm. I'm curious if anyone else has thoughts on this, as it's a thought-provoking question.

Jerry Kruse

Correct me if I'm wrong, but are you suggesting that the presence of sperm precipitates follicular development?

I am suggesting that the development of a second clutch is the result of the condition of the females. And, if a female is not "fat" enough (or is not prompted by abundant food), she most likely would not produce a second clutch.
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Ophidiarium Charieis

"Correct me if I'm wrong, but are you suggesting that the presence of sperm precipitates follicular development?"

Ryan, not at all. All I am stating is simply that sperm retention is sperm retention, whether or not the female is in prime condition or not (with respect to body mass). I don't "think" there is a correlation, as i have not read any evidence-based materials on such a topic. If you have, please do share. Like I said, it's an interesting and thought-provoking question, one that requires possibly more research. You've got me curious as well, and am not suggesting anything really. I just don't see the correlation between body mass and follicle development. BUT, then again, mayb there is. Women that are anorexic are known to have an involuntary biological response whereby they do not have a period cycle -- so, all the more thought-provoking.

Jerry Kruse

Jerry, from my own experience, Ryan is right on the money. The first couple of years I started breeding Lampros I fed the females very heavy after egg laying since I breed my own mice. Guess what, unplanned second clutches from most of them. All infertile by the way. From then on slightly reduced at first, then more towards the end of the season. No more second clutches. It's definitely about condition. Think about snakes in the wild. If "condition" wasn't important, there would be a lot of females that wouldn't even survive a breeding season and/or produce poor quality offspring with low survival chances. Nature favors the strongest, not the weakest. That's why some females are generally not receptive to breeding in a given season. Some type of health or condition response. In captivity it's very easy to promote enough extra "health" for multiple clutches, whether intentional or not....lol. On a brighter note, damn fine snakes here! Nice to see Mike checking in. Regards to all.

Eimon

Hi Eimon,

Good point, and it IS viable to think that there is that possibility. Again, referring back to what Allan was saying with regard to the unexpected/unintentional egg production, I don't think that he introduced any males to the females post egg deposit. I personally feed my females very well subsequent to egg laying, and have never had such an experience in almost 18 years of doing this. That's why I harped on the sperm retention factor, BUT, anything is possible. I was wondering if there might be any studies done on this, and I've dropped a line to a couple of friends who may know somethign about this type of research. If I get any feedback I will certainly post it. Again, I'm NOT looking to discredit any theories here, but my conclusion was simply rational enough to consider that any female would be hungry after egg deposit, whether captive or wild, to eat when opportunity provides. I completely agree that nature favors the strongest (i.e.: Darwin) and that in captivity our snakes have a greater advantage for food (and the variable there is the keeper, of course), but does that necessarily mean that is a factor in stimulating follicle production? It may very well be a combination of the two, but I'd like to know if there may be a more definitive answer to this.

Jerry Kruse

I'm with you Jerry. If my thoughts sounded like an "absolute/only" they weren't meant that way. I probably should have said just from my experience, condition seems to be the major factor. I don't know that it's the only one. And that experience is with getula type Kings, my z's and pyro's have never done that even with heavier feeding, but I started working with those a few years after the others, so maybe it was already in mind. It will be interesting to see if Allan's eggs are fertile or not, as time will tell him/us that. If there is one thing I have learned over the years, be it from captive care or in the field observing, it's to never think that something is only/always just one way. That's when I have gotten my biggest lessons....lol. It's rather nice to not be so smart any more, makes the fun factor and the interest level much greater! In this case, the more info/experience relayed and gathered the better.

Eimon

Agreed. I did not mean to sound absolute either. So let's establish this "Bartlett Watch", lol (Allan, you getting all of this from that one posting???) officially and take bets. My dollar is on the table for a 50/50 clutch (half fertile). Any other takers?

Jerry K.

I can add a couple observations:

A few years back I had a cal king double-clutch, and I'm quite certain she was not with a male after the first clutch. Most of the eggs were bad, but there was one that hatched.

Now, just this weekend I cleaned my snakes, and found a bunch of dried eggs in my with female pyro. She has NEVER been with a male, so I wasn't expecting any eggs, and didn't realize her shed two weeks ago was a pre-egg-laying shed.

Lastly, I have a female cal king( different from above) who also has never been with a male. After seeing those eggs from the pyro, I palpitated her (felt her up, Jerry!), and lo and behold, she has follicles.

So, there's one vote for sperm retention, and two votes for condition. Clear as mud, I hope!

by far THE longest thread in the mtn king sub-forum in quite a long time. Yeahhh!!! Thank Allan......and my bet's on a 50% rate too. I guess we can conclude that follicle PRODUCTION is based upon conditioning however it's in the bag (no pun intended, lol) that a fertile clutch would have to be due to sperm retention. What happened to Ryan by the way???

Jerry K.

Yes, thats correct.Thanks........

L8r Sal

I check in every couple days or so. Too busy to keep right on top of fast moving threads.

Seems to me there are only a limited number of ways to precipitate follicle development. Most are internal only to the female. One could hypothesize a number of male induced triggers - copulation (similar to how cats must be copulated [sometimes artificially] in order to stop estrus), presence of retained sperm/semen hormones (current or prior year), or tactile stimulation.

However, I believe I have observed females develop follicles in the spring where there has been no male influence in the current or prior year (other than presence in nearby cages). Anecdotal evidence strongly suggests to me that what drives follicle development is entirely internal to the female – at least the first time in the Spring. That’s part of why I would expect that the development of a second clutch in a second season is entirely dependent on the female, and body condition is one of my prime suspects.

I do wonder if given different times of year, will the same female in the same condition produce a second clutch under one circumstance, but not the other? I.e. Allan, if your female had laid her first clutch on June 23rd (after the summer solstice) rather than in May, given the same conditions, would she have attempted to produce a second clutch? Could she be sensing that daylight hours are still increasing, and thus, she has ‘plenty of time to give it a second go’?

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Ophidiarium Charieis

"However, I believe I have observed females develop follicles in the spring where there has been no male influence in the current or prior year (other than presence in nearby cages). Anecdotal evidence strongly suggests to me that what drives follicle development is entirely internal to the female – at least the first time in the Spring. That’s part of why I would expect that the development of a second clutch in a second season is entirely dependent on the female, and body condition is one of my prime suspects."

Ryan, you are a gentleman and a scholar. Very well written and insightful making so many great points. I believe there is much viability for all of these hypotheses, particularly in your above statement with INITIAL follicle development post-brumation -- there the element of condition IS vital and a certain factor. As far as the initial discussion regarding post-egg lay follicle development and potential triggers, there seems to be a couple considerations but nothing to really drive it home. But a VERY interesting subject that, again, I think furthers more discussion going forward. I think that this is all relevant and relative, and I would ask that (at least the ones that are involved in this discussion) make note of their observations in the future so we could have this discussion again and compare/contrast what we find. Ryan, hope to speak to you again soon. I actually did send you an e-mail the other day fyi. Wishing all a great "first-summer" weekend.

Jerry Kruse

If I go by what happened last year to a female that retained sperm and double clutched, she went 4 for 7 on the second clutch(or 57% fertility rate). I predict two eggs out of the smaller female and four eggs out of the bigger one. I'd be happy with a 50% rate.
Juarez Wonders

In my experience, double clutching is only fertile when the male is re-introduced. I also know that if the female does produce follicles, after her first clutch, you are better off re-introducing the male. The female is already going through all of the motions of a second clutch, why not produce more offspring?
I've noticed a higher risk of egg binding and dystocia with infertile clutches as well. I think that the theory of sperm retention is used a little too freely in these situations. Nine times out of ten the eggs will be infertile if the male is not re-introduced. So my moneys on the entire clutch being bad.
And believe it or not I'm not trying to be a pessimist, just a realist.
-Phil
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Work is the curse
of the drinking class!

He's comin' for ya Phil......he likes the sperm retention thing. He's pissed now...... LOL.

Jer

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back already.Don't make me come down there for you too jerky,

L8r Frank

>> The first couple of years I started breeding Lampros I fed the females very heavy after egg laying since I breed my own mice. Guess what, unplanned second clutches from most of them. All infertile by the way. From then on slightly reduced at first, then more towards the end of the season. No more second clutches. >>

If you'd attribute this to a wild snake it would make sense that a female produce more young during years of plentiful prey, and double clutch, and less during years of light prey availablility. Sort of a natural population control. Just a thought.
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Ace

I tend to agree. Condition, leads to second clutches. Wheather or not they are viable depends on several factors ie were they bred again or was sperm from the original breeding retained and still viable.

>>Two of my females are gravid again and I'm not happy about it. They have no business laying a second clutch with the body weight they lost after the their first clutches. Oh well. They weren't with any males either after they laid their first ones, but I guess that doesn't stop them from retaining sperm and pooping out some more eggs. Now I will have to hold them back next year most likely. I became suspious a few days ago when I tried to feed them. They normally are coming out of the cage mouths' agape knowing they are going to get fed. When one didn't eat and the other very reluctantly ate, I knew I had two more gravid snakes.
>>Juarez Wonders

I suppose you can send them to snake obedience school as a last resort.

I had a feeling this would happen. It looks like all four eggs the 1st female laid are duds on her second clutch. Dammit dammit sonofa[bleep]
Juarez Wonders

Hey Allan,

bummer man. But hey, many good eggs have come your way this year. The glass is half full...... Looking forward to seeing what pops out in August for ya -- maybe triplets this year, lol.

Jerry Kruse