Reptile & Amphibian Forums

my first clutch began to hatch 2 weeks ago. I had 18 healthy looking eggs, that were incubated on moist vermiculite in a water ratio of 2 parts water for 3 parts vermiculite. the temperature was aproximately 28 degree celcius. first I had 4 healhy babies hatchling, several days later all remaining eggs showed beading of water and show first signs of shell permeability prior hatchling: (the shell became wet)some even showed some signs of shell sliting, but none more hatched. when I oppened the eggs several days later I found 14 fully formed hatchlings, but all were dead, what is the matter? what can I do with the following clutches? please help, I never experimented such problems with veiled...

sorry you lost so many babies,i have not hatched any panthers yet, i have two clutchs cooking right now at 73,i think your temps were too high,how many days were they incubating for?

Sorry to hear this. Your incubation set-up sounds essentially okay. I've not had this problem myself, so my thoughts are shots in the dark....

How far apart were the eggs within the vermiculite? Could be the stronger ones hatching caused the others to synchronize and hatch prematurely. They dont always have to hatch at the same time, and keeping them a few inches separated tends to reduce the likelyhood of one hatchling triggering the rest to hatch.

Did the moisture level increase or decrease any after the first four hatched? or were some higher up or less covered than others? Too much moisture can sofocate, too little and they have trouble slitting the shell. Some people mist the eggs when they show signs of sweating and hatching is imminently expected. I dont though, and have never had any not hatch, so perhaps my environment has higher humidity, or perhaps this step is just not necessary.

If you encounter the problem again, you could try to manually slit the eggsshells yourself, to help the little ones out.

-----
Sandra
BC Canada

thank you for your suggestions. the spacing between eggs was roughly 5mm to 10mm, I did not add any moisture after the first hatched, but it was no condensation inside the egg container, maybe to dry? the home made incubator was setted at approximately 28 degree, but maybe it had short time the temperature was 29 because I incubated also veiled and bearded dragon, may be it has been to hot, although none of the dead babies was showing deformation. I also have an other incubator working at 25- 26 degree, for incubating crested gecko eggs, do you think it will be better to put them at lower temerature?
thank you
Daniel
Israel

You asked if 29 degrees C is possibly too high a temperature.

Well, yes, maybe. Most of mine were incubated at about 25 degrees C. One batch was closer to 20 degrees C for the majority of the incubation, and they took 13 months to hatch (much longer than the other clutches, so presumably 20 is too cool). Most of what I've read suggests 23-27 degrees C (73-80 F). Were you also monitoring Humidity?

I've also read that Hatch rates can vary from 0-100%. I've been lucky, with 100% hatch rates every time, and have only had one hatchling die thereafter. At least so far! fingers crossed.

When you placed the eggs in your incubation medium, did you maintain the same vertical orientation in which they were laid? I've been very careful about this, as I read it was important. I suppose it is possible that an egg placed upside down might have difficulties, though I suspect that would be apparent from the start with a dead egg right away.

I've only allowed 5 clutches over 8 years, so undoubtedly there are more experienced folks out there. I hope someone with more extensive experience on this subject answers you.

How are the four who did hatch doing?

-----
Sandra
BC Canada

thank you Sandra for your so detailed reply. I put them initially in this incubator where I incubated cluthes of others reptiles that need higher temperatures. now I took 2 remaining clutches and put them in other home made incubator with an average temps of about 25 degrees. I initially put the needed moisture by weighting the vermiculite and water, but I had never gauged the humidity % later, only have checked the eggs, and adding some drops of water around eggs if they begin to form dents. do you mesure the humidity % with an hygrometer during incubation? how do you do it? have you to put the whole hygrometer inside the egg container? How many humidity % should it show? all the babies that died in the shell were looking okay, showing no malformation. may be they have suffocated in their eggs, because high temps cause them to consume too much oxygen? I never encounterd such problems with others lizards I breed: bearded and frilled dragons, veileds chameleons, leopards and crested geckos.... so may be this is the reason panthers are so expensive? how do you do to attach photos to your reply in this forum? my survivor babies are doing very well, I think I get one male and 3 females, but yet not sure.... thank you
Daniel

You asked how to post pictures. check out this link

http://www.pethobbyist.com/articles/PhotoGalleryFAQ.html
-----
Sandra
BC Canada

thank you for such a detailed reply. no I never check the humidity with an hygrometer once i put the vermiculite with the right amount off water. do you check the humidity % ? how do you proceed exactly? you put the entire hygrometer inside the egg cotainer atop the vermiculite? how moisture should it show? my 4 babies are doing very well, how do you proceed to attach photos to your reply?
thank you
Daniel

i put an hygrometer atop the vermiculite inside the egg container, an by now it show 99%. is it too much moisture?

Sorry for the delay in getting back to you. I believe the air inside my little incubation bucket was about 70% humidty. the little digital meter I used in there isnt perfect, so I'd say any reading it gives me is plus or minus 5%. I mostly had it in there just to see the temperature (the thing measures both, including highs and lows over time, so I was making sure the temperature remained relatively constant overnight). Also, it wasnt resting right on the medium, but was stuck to the side of the container, a centemetre or so above the vermiculite medium. I suspect it would have been a much higher humidity reading if it were actually on the vermiculite medium. I honestly dont know what the best humidity level is. I mostly went with the "pinch test" for determining if the vermiculight was moist enough. If I took a palmfull of the medium, it felt wet but I couldnt squeeze out drips. the only time I felt I had to add moisture was after the lid was accidentally left partially open for a couple days.
I asked you if you measured humidty because I was curious, wondering if maybe it was too damp or too dry, without really knowing what levels equal too much of anything. Sorry I'm not more help. Hopefully someone else will have more useful comments.
-----
Sandra
BC Canada

hi Sandra thank you , my hygrometer that I put right atop the moist vermiculite is showing 99%, maybe if I will raise it above the vermiculite it will show somewhat lower humidity level I will try to do so latter, I tend to think the problem was linked to too high temperature that can cause elevation in the metabolism, and the young just prior to hatchling need much more oxygen than the shell can provide before actual slitting, so they die from suffocation, my eggs hatched in about 6 months... now I put the remaining clutch at 25 degree, and I hope getting better results in about several months,
thank you again,
Daniel

Yes six months seems a short time for panther eggs.
Good luck with the next batch.

S
-----
Sandra
BC Canada