Reptile & Amphibian Forums

is this normal at all?

he can close his mouth when he wants to, but most the time there is this gap when resting.

what should i do?

I'm not a vet...just going from experience...it could be a calcium imbalance. I would recommend a visit to a vet.

What do you use in the way of supplements (specific please) and how often do you use each?
What (specifically) do you use for gutloading/feeding the insects? For both of the above I'm looking specifically at the calcium, phosphorous, D3 and PREFORMED vitamin A.

What brand and type (compact or linear/tube)UVB light do you use? Does the light pass through glass or plastic?

What is the basking temperature? Ambient temperature?

i feed him a varied diet of kingworms fish,raw ground beef raw ground turkey very rarely a pinkie mouse. he doesn't have a super apitite, he eats prolly every other day the turkey and talapia have herpivite calcium suppliment which is added maybe 2-3 times a week. i can't feed crickets as they escape his enclosure. once a week he gets a multivitamin, i believe it is repcal or something i don't remember as it's in a salt shaker now.

pic of his his enclosure:

i'm not sure of the ambient air temps, as every thermometer i have seems to break or be innacurate i use a temp gun for surface temps,
basking site hits 110 surface temp during the day
coolside surface temp is about 75-79
the bulb is a mercury vapor providing uvb and heat only thing between the light and the lizard is 1" bars and maybe 10-12" from the surface.

50-60% humidity

I might be able to help, but you need to give me some info. Use your thumb and index finger to slightly pinch the jaw down. Try to describe to me what it feels like. Is it rubbery and weak, or is it strong with a solid structure. This can be used to determine if it is a calcium issue.

You said..."i feed him a varied diet of kingworms fish,raw ground beef raw ground turkey very rarely a pinkie mouse"...some of these things are not used to feed dragons with. Some of them can lead to health issues. Some of them contain preformed vitamin A which if given in excess can prevent the D3 from doing its job and lead to MBD.

In addition to crickets (which you said escape from the cage, the dragon may be fed superworms, silkworms, roaches, waxworms (once in a while), etc. The dragon may also be fed an assortment of greens (dandelion, kale, collards, endive, escarole, mustard greens, etc.) and veggies (carrot, squash, zucchini, sweet potato, sweet red pepper, etc.) and a bit of fruit (apple, pear, melon, berries, etc.).

Your calcium supplement...is it with or without D3?

You said..."pic of his his enclosure:"...its not showing up.

damn, i want to say it's with d3 i'm 90% sure its the yellowish powder in the white tub

the inclosure pic takes a while to load, it's on the bottom of the post.

so water dragons are insectavores? i can't really get him to eat many kingworms, it's like he got sick of them about a year ago and nowadays if i give him mealworms he'll only eat like 3 every other day,

he'll rarely eat the turkey or beef and allwaays waits a few hours before taking a pinky, but the talapia he scarfs with abandon...really fish in general. he will literaly quadruple his food intake if i add fish to his diet, especially fillets like talipia. i have learned to vary foods for reptiles from day to day from my tegu. the talapia contains no vitimin A and i have never been able to get him to eat any vegitable or fruit, even grapes which there supposed to really like.
i guess i really need to get my proposed discoid roach colony going.

here it is

sorry for the triple post, i can't find the edit button.

helped him get shedding off last night as he was sitting in his water doing the doggy scratch trying to get some off the top of his head. i felt his mouth every part of it is firm to the touch, there is no visible blemishes on or in his mouth. touching his mouth and pushing on his jaws and mouth area caused no pain. his tongue teeth gums and jawline look healthy. he fully closes his mouth when i hold him. and he [bleep]s on me if i hold him for much time over 60 seconds. not to mention raking my wrists with his back claws.

so, if it were mbd, switching to an insectavore diet would help?
i really don't think it's mbd as his jaws are hard and healthy. he gets tons of calcium, has a mercury vapor lamp, and he's incredibly strong for his size.

I did finally see the pictures.

You said..."if it were mbd, switching to an insectavore diet would help?"...you need to take him to a vet to have tests done to see if its a calcium problem. I can't tell you. There is preformed vitamin A in "meat" products...see below.

However...MBD has to do with calcium balance in the system. Phosphorous, calcium, D3 and vitamin A all play a part in it.
Too much or too little of any of them will result in problems.

Exposure to UVB light (that does not pass through glass or plastic) allows the dragon to produce D3 which allows it to use the calcium in its diet.

Appropriate temperatures help with digestion and thus play a part in nutrients absorbed.

Most of the insects that we use have a poor ratio of calcium to phosphorous....so dusting them with a phos.-free calcium powder before you feed them to your dragon helps to make up for this.

Gutloading and feeding your insects a nutritious diet will benefit your dragon.

If you use vitamins (like herptivite)which contains a beta carotene source of vitamin A you can ensure that the dragon gets its vitamins without causing a vitamin A overdose. Preformed vitamin A (which comes from animal products or possibly from carnivorous insects) can build up in the system and prevent the D3 from doing its job and lead to MBD. Beef, fish (including tilapia), chicken, pinky mice, etc. all contain preformed vitamin A.

If your dragon only gets UVB from a UVB tube light, then it may need a phos.-free calcium/D3 powder a couple of times a month. D3 from SUPPLEMENTS can also build up in the system...so don't overdo it. BTW...does he sit under the light?

As I said before its important that the phos., calcium, D3 and vitamin A need to be in balance for good bones. When trying to balance it you need to look at what you feed to the insects, to the dragon and what you supplement with.
You asked if they are insectivores...no, they are imnivores.

Tilapia...
"Tilapia is an excellent source of protein, vitamin A, iron and calcium."
http://www.metro.ca/conseil-expert/poissonnier/etal-poissonnier/poissons/poissons-mi-gras/tilapia.en.html

Hope this helps!

WOW, the thing i read said tilapia had no vitamin A! that could very well be the issue! i guess i will invest in a roach colony. Discoids! i'll suppliment with earthworms and just force him to eat kingworms, he will if he's hungry enough.

maybe i'll set up a 20gal long for feeding him crickets. that way i can do the gutload thing. plus, kingworms don't dust well, so the crickets may be a good answer.

thank you for your help, i guess i allways thought the uvb, calcium/phosphor, d3 connection was just something that balances itself as long as you have high calcium, lower phosphorus and high uvb and d3. i never knew vit A could throw it off.

he adjusts his basking as he has a very broad range of basking sites. there is a vine 6" away from the light, a platform 12 away and a hole in the platform that lets the direct light through to the floor of the inclosure. and depending on ambient room temps (wire cage) he will adjust where he basks. he is actually quite active, jumping and leaping from wall to wall to platform to water.

one thing, back in his old tank i tried to give him a 29 gallon water tank with a filter but i diden't realize the filter was woefully unable to clean his water and since the tub was black i diden't realize the water was getting gross. id imagine he drank alot of it, could it be possible that the gap is caused by a bacterial infection even though there is no swelling or discoloration?

thanks for your help, obviously you have a finer grasp on nutrition for specific reptiles than me.

any tips on how to get my water dragon to eat his fruits n veggi's?

thanks!!

how does his breathing sound? If it was my lizard gaping, I would suspect a respiratory infection before anything else. Also, does he do this behavior all over the cage, or just on the basking site? It is common behavior for uromastyx to bask with their mouths open to let out excess heat. If he is only doing it under your vapor bulb, it could be that.have you heard him sneeze at all?