Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hey everyone. I frequently read many of the kingsnake forums, to gain knowledge about as many herps as I can. However, I really only post when I have a problem or question that I think the experts here can help me with. This time, it is about vivariums. Soecifically Terribilis or Azureus Dart Frog vivariums. I have always been interested in Dart Frogs, and recently my dad and I have been seriously considering getting a group of them, probably Teriibilis or Azureus. So, naturally, I have a few questions...

1. What would you Dart Frog guys out there recommend for me: Terribilis, Azureus, or something else completely? I am mostly a snake kind of guy, with several lizards as well, but Dart Frogs are so interesting and cool, and as you all know usually have some of the nicest looking vivariums. Most of my enclosures are pretty boring, some bedding, a water bowl, a hide, maybe a few logs or a fake plant. I really want to have an awesome looking vivarium that shocks people, along with some cool little inhabitants that add to the beauty. I would like to have one of the more stunning and active variety, not one of those drab (for Dart Frog standards, LOL) ones that hide whenever you enter the room. So after looking at about 60 species, I have narrowed it down to Terribilis and Azureus, or maybe Leucomelas, Pumilio, or Trivittatus. As for the size of the vivarium, it will be pretty big, I'll address that in my next question.

2. What would be a good tank size to start with? I was thinking maybe a 40 gallon, mostly since that is the biggest size background I could find, but I suppose I could make one. I dunno, 40 gallon doesn't seem big enough for what I want to do. If anyone could show me a larger background I would appreciate it.

3. I need advice, tips, and kind of a tutorial on making the vivarium. Ideally, I would have a slate or stone waterfall in the back left corner, that kind of flows down a little winding stream to the right 1/4 or 1/3 of the tank, which would be a little pool of water for the Frogs to drink from, and just to look cool. Sort of similar to this: http://www.blackjungle.com/gallery2/main.php?g2_itemId=3423 , but a slate or stone stream instead of a cork one, and a taller waterfall as well. That site does have a tutorial, but it's kind of hard to tell what it's talking about sometimes. Also, after reading on the Dart Frog forums I saw that it is useflul to use a "false bottom" in vivariums with water features. I saw people discussing them, I didn't get the jist of exactly what it is. So, exactly what is a false bottom, why does it help, and how can I set it up?

4. One of the fundamental and important parts of a vivarium are the live plants. What living vines, moss, fungi (harmless of course), lichen, or other plants would be recommended, based on ease of setting up, minimal care, suitability for a Dart Frog enclosure, aesthetics, and helping the vivarium look more naturalistic?

5. I have heard of Dart Frogs living with other animals. What are some good, safe cagemates for Dart Frogs? I sort of doubt it, but would Mudskippers and Dart Frogs get along? From what I've read about both animals, I believe they would theoretically be able to, based on cage specs, but would they fight? As I said before, I am planning on having 1/4 to 1/3 of the vivarium as a mini pond, so don't forget about aquatic species. I am open to snakes, lizards, other amphibians, fish, turtles, anything that can live in harmony with Dart Frogs and is reasonable to take care of.

I think that's about it, I undoubtedly will have more questions as people reply, and as I read and think more about Dart Frogs.

I am posting this in a few different forums where I think people will be able to help me.

1. P. terribilis and D. azeurus are great viv animals so you're off to a good start. D. azeurus are a bit territorial, at least more so than P. terribilis so if you were going to get more than 1 of the same gender of D. azeurus you would have to give them plenty of room. Trivattus are a little more reclusive and not as hardy as the other two. Pumilio's are not the best beginner dart for a lot of reasons, but they are gorgous. But I wouldn't suggest starting off with these guys. Leucomelas are one of my favorite darts, they are not shy at all, but neither are azeurus or terribilis. The great thing about leucs is they are very communal so you can have a group with no territorial issues.

2. A 40 gallon is a good size for any of the frogs you wanted, you could do 5ish leucs in that size, 3 azeurus, and maybe 4 terribilis. 40 gallons is a good size for darts, and while you could go bigger you'de be amazed at how much money you can spend on planting a larger tank.

3. What you have planned for the waterfall sounds nice, moss, ricca, and ferns sprout up wherever there is moving water which makes it look a lot more natural. I recently did a mantella tank with a fully functioning water fall and I didn't use a false bottom so don't feel like you absolutly have to make one, especially if you don't want to. A false bottom is pvc pipes with eggcrate on top to provide an extra drainage layer or to put a water pump in.

http://www.freewebs.com/kapoktree/falsebottomviv.htm
article i wrote on false bottoms

http://www.freewebs.com/kapoktree2/vivariumplants.htm
on viv plants

4. Don't mix. Thats all I will say. http://amphibiancare.com/frogs/articles/communitytank.html pretty much says it all.

Here's some pics of a tank with a waterfall I made, it sounded a little like what you wanted to do so maybe this will help?

http://i240.photobucket.com/albums/ff7/otis07_bucket/P1013109.jpg
http://i240.photobucket.com/albums/ff7/otis07_bucket/P1013150.jpg
http://i240.photobucket.com/albums/ff7/otis07_bucket/P1013147.jpg

I hope this helps!
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A room of herps.
www.freewebs.com/kapoktree

1. P. terribilis and D. azeurus are great viv animals so you're off to a good start. D. azeurus are a bit territorial, at least more so than P. terribilis so if you were going to get more than 1 of the same gender of D. azeurus you would have to give them plenty of room. Trivattus are a little more reclusive and not as hardy as the other two. Pumilio's are not the best beginner dart for a lot of reasons, but they are gorgous. But I wouldn't suggest starting off with these guys. Leucomelas are one of my favorite darts, they are not shy at all, but neither are azeurus or terribilis. The great thing about leucs is they are very communal so you can have a group with no territorial issues.

Yeah, after reading your post and other stuff on the internet I'm pretty sure I'm going to go with Terribilis. It's okay to mix morphs, right?

2. A 40 gallon is a good size for any of the frogs you wanted, you could do 5ish leucs in that size, 3 azeurus, and maybe 4 terribilis. 40 gallons is a good size for darts, and while you could go bigger you'de be amazed at how much money you can spend on planting a larger tank.

Should I do a 40 Breeder or just a normal 40 gallon?

3. What you have planned for the waterfall sounds nice, moss, ricca, and ferns sprout up wherever there is moving water which makes it look a lot more natural. I recently did a mantella tank with a fully functioning water fall and I didn't use a false bottom so don't feel like you absolutly have to make one, especially if you don't want to. A false bottom is pvc pipes with eggcrate on top to provide an extra drainage layer or to put a water pump in.

Would it be better to use one though? It doesn't seem to challenging especially compared to a lot of other stuff involved in this, so if it is useful I will do it. And when you say egg crates, do you mean the cardboard ones? They just seem like they wouldn't stand up well to water, maybe causing mold or something.

http://www.freewebs.com/kapoktree/falsebottomviv.htm
article i wrote on false bottoms

http://www.freewebs.com/kapoktree2/vivariumplants.htm
on viv plants

I'm sure I'll use both of those when making the viv.

4. Don't mix. Thats all I will say. http://amphibiancare.com/frogs/articles/communitytank.html pretty much says it all.

Yeah, I kinda knew that was the answer, but I still had to ask. Thanks for that site by the way, it's pretty helpful.

Here's some pics of a tank with a waterfall I made, it sounded a little like what you wanted to do so maybe this will help?

http://i240.photobucket.com/albums/ff7/otis07_bucket/P1013109.jpg
http://i240.photobucket.com/albums/ff7/otis07_bucket/P1013150.jpg
http://i240.photobucket.com/albums/ff7/otis07_bucket/P1013147.jpg
Yes, that's real similar to what I was thinking of, except I was going to have a taller, more "dramatic" waterfall if you know what I mean.
I hope this helps!

1. Terribilis are really cool frogs. But as far as mixing morphs, not so good. It's essentially the same as mixing species, you don't want to create hybrids, one of the things I love about the dart world is the general consensus that there are enough beautiful frogs allready out there, so there is no need for hybrids. If you were go mix them and you got eggs and made it public that you were selling them for a normal price and all, there would be a lot of people who weren't too happy with you. Dart frog people don't even like to mix different "lines." Example: a pair of imis, but the male is from Saun Stewarts like and the female is from Patrick Nabors. Some people wouldn't even breed them because of this, all in attempt to keep the genetic integrity.

2. Terribilis are huge climbers, but a 40 gallon isn't that tall, so either would work. I have found that it is alot easier to landscape with wider tanks however, so I usually go for more ground room over vertical space. But either would work.

3. Using a false bottom would probably be a lot easier, but you can also just put the pump in the water area and cover it up with a piece of wood. Thats what I did and it was a heck of a lot easier and it gives you access to the pump without haveing to rip up the tank.

4. Good luck with everything, if you are going to make a super high waterfall make sure all the slate is stable and will not fall on the frogs. I use GE silicone II to hold it together, but I have also used great stuff to make more elaborate waterfalls with a stream and all.
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A room of herps.
www.freewebs.com/kapoktree

1. I guess that's understandable. Now I can't decide if I like the Orange or Mint better... Orange is one of my favorite colors, but the mint ones look so unreal.

2. Wait, Terribilis ARE climbers? I think I've read that they are highly terrestrial. Was that a typo or am I mistaken?

3. That idea sounds like it would be easier and look better. Thanks for the suggestion.

4. Yeah, I of course will make sure everything is as stable as possible before introducing the frogs.

Thanks again man, you've taught me a lot of stuff I feel I need to know about darts.

Definetily a typo, my bad. You are right, they are not big climbers at all. Good catch

Glad I could be of help, and don't hesitate to ask if you have any more questions.
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A room of herps.
www.freewebs.com/kapoktree

Good to know, If it wasn't a typo I would know what to believe lol.

check out this vivarium group:

http://pets.groups.yahoo.com/group/TheNaturalisticVivarium/
The Naturalistic Vivarium

i would suggest a 40gallon breeder that is what i am using, breeder tanks are less height and more room so i think you would be quite happy with it. by the way do you know of any frog dealers in cincinnati area that carry leopard tree frogs clown tree frogs glass frogs or veitnamese blue frogs? if so please have them email me or just give me their email or phone number i would greatly appreciate it.