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H. cinera question

Morgana Jul 21, 2008 01:39 AM

I live deep in the woods of Ga., and I have a weird situation I want to think ahead on when winter temps arrive. There's no screen on my bathroom window, and the window stays open all the time.

I have a Green Tree Frog that has adopted my bathroom as its daytime safe haven. He goes out at dusk and returns at dawn. (Cute lil guy) I even leave a small bucket of well water sitting in the tub that I change daily, and sometimes it takes a swim, lol.

I'm an old herper, so he/she is welcome to hang here, but I started thinking about winter, and what will happen?

Does anyone know...do they hibernate, and if they do...where? (I'm wondering if they go underground or what? It gets down to 18-30 here some winters and then warms back up for a few days). I keep this bathroom natural (no heat/no AC) whereas the rest of the house is heated/AC. Anyone know any info about non captive conditions?

Told ya it was weird. :P

Replies (8)

CKing Jul 21, 2008 02:09 PM

>>I live deep in the woods of Ga., and I have a weird situation I want to think ahead on when winter temps arrive. There's no screen on my bathroom window, and the window stays open all the time.
>>
>>I have a Green Tree Frog that has adopted my bathroom as its daytime safe haven. He goes out at dusk and returns at dawn. (Cute lil guy) I even leave a small bucket of well water sitting in the tub that I change daily, and sometimes it takes a swim, lol.
>>
>>I'm an old herper, so he/she is welcome to hang here, but I started thinking about winter, and what will happen?
>>
>>Does anyone know...do they hibernate, and if they do...where? (I'm wondering if they go underground or what? It gets down to 18-30 here some winters and then warms back up for a few days). I keep this bathroom natural (no heat/no AC) whereas the rest of the house is heated/AC. Anyone know any info about non captive conditions?
>>
>>Told ya it was weird. :P

Does the green treefrog breed in cold weather? If it does, there is a danger that it may someday be included in the genus Pseudacris, which used to be defined as a group of secondarily terrestrial treefrogs with small discs on their fingers and toes and little to no webbing on their feet. Now, some taxnomists have expanded the genus Pseudacris by proposing a transfer of Hyla regilla, Hyla cadaverina and Hyla crucifer to Pseudacris, even though these treefrogs have well developed discs and extensive webbing. The genus Pseudacris is now defined by some as a clade of "cold weather breeding frogs." Since all of the species of Hyla in the United States are closely related to Pseudacris, we may one day see all of these species of Hyla, including Hyla cinerea and Hyla gratiosa, included in Pseudacris.

Enough silliness. The green treefrog is of course a wild animal. So, it is best to keep it from coming inside your house when fall approaches, so that it can prepare for the winter properly. It should be able to find a refuge for winter if it is a good little green treefrog. If it fails to find a suitable wintering site on its own, well then that is natural selection at work. Natural selection does not always mean survival of the fittest. Sometimes it merely means the demise of the unfit.

batrachos Jul 22, 2008 02:18 PM

CKing- H. cinerea is in little danger of becoming a Pseudie; its light-pigmented gonads and close similarity to H. arborea (the type of Hyla) should keep it in that genus.

Anyhow, greens, to my knowledge, do not burrow. They generally shelter inside logs or leaf pack during cold weather. Yours may elect to stay in your house over winter, which should be no problem if you're willing to offer him a cricket or fly now and again (the warm temps in your house will keep his metabolism up, so he'll still need to eat).

CKing Jul 22, 2008 11:31 PM

>>CKing- H. cinerea is in little danger of becoming a Pseudie; its light-pigmented gonads and close similarity to H. arborea (the type of Hyla) should keep it in that genus.>>

Hyla regilla is even more similar in appearance to Hyla arborea than is Hyla cinerea. That of course has not kept some cladists (and those who just want to act like cladists) from lumping Hyla regilla with Psuedacris.

Anyhow, the recent mtDNA analysis by Moriarty and Cannatella appears flawed, because both the parsimony tree and and likelihood tree nested Hyla crucifer, which has distinct toe pads, inside of traditional Pseudacris. If their trees are correct, it would mean that the small toe discs of Pseudacris is a convergence. Pseudacris (as traditionally defined) would then be an unnatural polyphyletic group that should be invalidated and its members transfered to Hyla. Instead, Moriarity and Cannatella chose to recognize Pseudacris anyway. That makes no sense at all. Besides, both their trees show Hyla regilla and H. cadaverina basal to the Pseudacris plus Hyla crucifer clade. It means they could have excluded H. regilla and H. cadaverina from Pseudacris but they didn't. That is another weird taxonomic decision on their part that makes no sense at all.

In spite of Moriarty and Cannatella's analysis, I still think Pseudacris is worth saving because it really is a monophyletic group (even according to the definition of Hennig), and that is because I believe their data is flawed. Their data is flawed because they chose Hyla chrysoscelis as the outgroup in their analysis. Hyla chrysoscelis is very much a derived member of the ingroup of Nearctic Hyla based on previous analyses. The nearctic species of Hyla, including those found in the USA and in Eurasia, are almost certainly descended from a member of the Hyla eximia group. Yet Moriarty and Cannatella's tree shows Hyla chrysoscelis as the basal most member, more basal than Hyla eximia. Their tree is about as anomalus as a tree that shows human beings being basal to the gorilla and the chimp. Because of the weird choice of outgroup, Moriarty and Cannatella's data is problematic and unreliable. Their taxonomic decision is both weird and problematic as well.

batrachos Jul 23, 2008 08:51 AM

I haven't seen this paper; what journal is it in?

The North American hylids are, I think, very similar to the lampropeltiins in their taxonomic issues; the generalized groups which closely resemble their extralimital relatives are the ancestors of the specialized New World taxa, and so paraphyletic taxonomy is common.

Of course none of this is relevant to the OP's question. I think I'll start a general taxonomy/nomenclature discussion thread in the scientific research forum.

CKing Jul 23, 2008 03:53 PM

>>I haven't seen this paper; what journal is it in?
>>
>>The North American hylids are, I think, very similar to the lampropeltiins in their taxonomic issues; the generalized groups which closely resemble their extralimital relatives are the ancestors of the specialized New World taxa, and so paraphyletic taxonomy is common.>>

Immunological data shows that there was an adaptive radiation early in the history of the N. American hylids. The immunological data supported an unresolved polytomy between Hyla arborea and the N. American hylids. Hyla is of course paraphyletic since Pseudacris is nested within Hyla.

>>Of course none of this is relevant to the OP's question. I think I'll start a general taxonomy/nomenclature discussion thread in the scientific research forum.>>

The OP mentioned Hyla cinerea and how the area in which he lived may be subject to cold weather. That got me thinking about the definition of Pseudacris as "cold weather breeding" frogs, and how that definition is absurd since some of the species of Pseudacris have similar distributions as Hyla cinerea.

The absurdity does not end there because Moriarty and Cannatella subdivided Pseudacris into several "clades" which they named "fat frogs", "trilling frogs" and "crucifer clade." Hence there is nothing sacred about the definition of "cold weather breeding." In fact, just about any criterion can be used to artificially delimit so-called "clades" using probably faulty mtDNA data. Although the OP's question was not taxonomic in nature, but it is nevertheless somewhat useful to bring up the absurdities that are behind some of the current taxonomic proposals because we see so many of these absurdities in the past few years.

batrachos Jul 23, 2008 05:38 PM

The Pseudies do all breed earlier in the year than do the sympatric Hyla, and they all have darkly-pigmented testes (presumably an adaptation to encourage spermatazoal development in cool weather). There's overlap, of course- peepers are usually still going when the grays start up- but as a generality it holds well, at least here in the east. I don't know much about the western hylids.

I share your frustration with under-supported conclusions touted as fact by taxonomists, and with the silliness of many cladistic classifications. However, I don't think it is cladistic theory itself that is the problem so much as the fact that people try to use it with Linnaean nomenclature- a case of utter incompatibility.

So- all species belong to one and only one genus by Linnaean rules, and all species are derived from a common ancestor. Therefore all genera are derived from other genera. Yet cladistics does not permit paraphyly, so logically all species must belong to a single genus. The obvious solution is to allow genera to be nested- the genera Pseudacris and Acris would be within the genus Hyla, for example- but this is disallowed by Linnaean rules. The cladists have tried to get around this by concentrating on terminal taxa and pretending that ancestral species do not exist, thereby creating a taxonomy based on which species happen to still be alive. This is foolish.

Clearly a new nomenclatural system is the solution. I know Phylocode has been put forth; I don't know enough about it to really evaluate it.

CKing Jul 23, 2008 09:17 PM

>>The Pseudies do all breed earlier in the year than do the sympatric Hyla, and they all have darkly-pigmented testes (presumably an adaptation to encourage spermatazoal development in cool weather). There's overlap, of course- peepers are usually still going when the grays start up- but as a generality it holds well, at least here in the east. I don't know much about the western hylids. >>

I think you missed the point. The genus Pseudacris is not defined on the basis of cold weather breeding whatsoever. All that cladists care about are clades. After they delimited a clade, then they may (or may not) try to name it as a taxon. It is not important whether this clade has anything in common at all and whether what they do have in common is meaningful or not. This is the opposite of what traditional taxonomists used to do: i.e. find a group that has something in common, for example, feathers, and then try to determine whether the group of animals that share this similarity is polyphyletic or not. If it is polyphyletic, then the taxon would be invalidated. If it is not polyphyletic, then it is a valid taxon.

>>I share your frustration with under-supported conclusions touted as fact by taxonomists, and with the silliness of many cladistic classifications. However, I don't think it is cladistic theory itself that is the problem so much as the fact that people try to use it with Linnaean nomenclature- a case of utter incompatibility.>>

Cladistics as a methodology has evolved into something even Hennig himself may no longer recognize. Hennig insisted on the use of synapomorphies, whereas currently practicing cladists rely instead on superificial similarities. That is one of the reasons why many of the morphological cladistic analyses of the recent past are being overturned by molecular data. Kluge's lumping of Calabaria, Charina and Lichanura comes readily to mind. Not only are cladistic classifications untenable, so are the results of many cladistic analyses.

>>So- all species belong to one and only one genus by Linnaean rules, and all species are derived from a common ancestor. Therefore all genera are derived from other genera. Yet cladistics does not permit paraphyly, so logically all species must belong to a single genus. The obvious solution is to allow genera to be nested- the genera Pseudacris and Acris would be within the genus Hyla, for example- but this is disallowed by Linnaean rules. The cladists have tried to get around this by concentrating on terminal taxa and pretending that ancestral species do not exist, thereby creating a taxonomy based on which species happen to still be alive. This is foolish. >>

Cladists do not pretend that ancestral species do not exist. They pretend that ancestral species automatically become extinct when new species evolve. Similarly they pretend that an old genus becomes extinct whenever a new genus arises. That is simply nuts, because there is no evolutionary mechanism that would cause an entire genus to become extinct. Since only one species may give rise to a new genus, the remaining species within the old genus has not changed, at least not enough to be named a new genus. But cladistic convention mandates that the old genus should be treated as a new daughter genus and that it be given a new name. I know of no evolutionary mechanism that would cause all of the species within a genus to evolve into a new genus. So, in effect, cladists are giving new names to taxa that have not changed and then pretend that its ancestor became extinct.

>>Clearly a new nomenclatural system is the solution. I know Phylocode has been put forth; I don't know enough about it to really evaluate it.>>

I disagree with you here. There is no need for a new nomenclatural system. There is a need for cladists to abandon their unscientific treatment of paraphyletic taxa and to stop giving new names to taxa that have not changed.

Morgana Jul 23, 2008 07:28 PM

Batrachos, thanks for the information and your input. It's appreciated.

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1.0.0 BP
1.1.0 Chondro

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