Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hi i have raised alot of reptiles in the past and they have done really well. I just have a couple of questions about these wonderful animals. I was hoping you guys could help me i have some harvester ants coming and i am planning on maintaining a steady supply but i am concerned as these lizards came from Utah and in my reading it said they may not eat ants. It is just some simple questions that i had. I was also interested in talking to Fireside3 you really seem to know your stuff and i want to make sure i do this right please let me know soon thank you.

Do you have P. platyrhinos?

All HLs do eat ants to some degree, and most mainly eat harvester ants, as a major part of their diet. The short horn species from higher elevation also eat ants, but are thought to sustain more on other invertebrates than some other HLs. There are high elevation ants that they will eat however. I would question any information which cast doubt upon HLs eating ants. This is simply not true. Even the mountain species will eat ants.

If you have platyrhinos, then they definitely are primarily ant eaters.

What matters most is the particular kind of ant. Some species of ants may be refused or less preferred by some species of HL.

Best thing I can tell you is see my links where you can download the material and you can ask me specifics from there.
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www.youtube.com/user/PhrynosomaTexas
Wichita Falls Reptile Rescue
Harvester Ants

Hi i have just read your post about Harvester Ant's and i was wondering if you know were i can get Ant's in the uk or a company which imports them to the uk please can you help me thanks !!! Iv'e had my lizard called pebbles for about 1 month she seems happy eating small crickets at the moment but i need Ants.

You might also read the info at www.phrynosoma.org which hads husbandry information as well.... Firesides information is great as well...
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Horned lizards seem to do well on a variety of ants.The ants I use in michigan seem to work well with them, and others around the country have used their "local" ants to a degree with good success.I have found from talking to others that any orange or red ants are not acceptable or suggested for use.But, most black or burgundy and black ants are acceptable.I use black ants now and then, but don't care for them as they are good climbers and really fast and harder to catch, but in a pinch I might get a few hundred or so and feed them.I have also used carpenter ants, which in my opinion are much larger than harvesters, and the HL's readily eat them.Some smaller Hl's prefer smaller ants, there not as intimidating to them and seem to prefer them.The site repto suggested is a good site, has a few picts of ants that I have used.I have even used ants that were frozen as a source of food and thawed and given to the HL's, as some will readily accept them.

"Orange ants" and "red ants" describe are the predominant color of most species of harvester ant that a Horned Lizard eats in its natural wild environment. But, color is not a reliable indicator of what is ok to feed a Horned Lizard. Species and genus is. I would advise anyone to stay away from using such simplistic recommendations as color when deciding what to feed a HL.

Carpenter ants are almost always larger than Harvester ants, but that is not a reliable factor for determining suitability. They are predatory for insects, not foragers of plant matter, therefore their nutritional makeup is completely different. Carpenter ants are also seldom found where HLs inhabit.

There appears to be debates about microflora in dirt from one species of Harvester ant to another, from one local to another, and how it affects HLs from one state to another...so I can't understand how so people just jump off to a completely different genus of ant, and think its not going to be a problem.
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Wichita Falls Reptile Rescue
Harvester Ants

Hey Mike,
You often talk about a particular ant species that has caused death in HLs, and I've heard it reference elsewhere as well. Do you know what species this is?

It's been my experience that HLs can do well with quite a variation in ants species, and that includes North America and Europe (not my personal experience). There are examples of cornutum in places like Florida, South Carolina, and I've even heard of one that went through the summer in the great lakes area. These are certainly not regions native to the species currently. Although it could be the case that sometime in the distant past they were native to these areas so they may carry some natural resistance to micro-flora.
Do you have any literature on the subject?

I don't disagree with you that even the right ant species from a non-native location might offer issues. I am all for caution when trying out new things, whether they be ants or other insects, as you suggest. It would be helpful if we could put a name to the ants/insects known to cause issues.
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>>Hey Mike,
>> You often talk about a particular ant species that has caused death in HLs, and I've heard it reference elsewhere as well. Do you know what species this is?

Iridomyrmex pruinosus , which was subsequently re-classed to genus Forelius. Common name "Lawn Ant". It was cited by Montanucci in his "Propagation" paper. I also have numerous entomology related links which reference the chemical components of various insects, from their venom constituents, to the alarm pheromones.

For this reason I stay away from anything that is suspect, and this usually includes small ants found on lawns, in cracks in concrete, around the walls of homes, and anything which my sources indicate has similar chemical makeup or alarm pheromones to lawn ants.

>>It's been my experience that HLs can do well with quite a variation in ants species, and that includes North America and Europe (not my personal experience).

I don't doubt variation in wild HL diet, as there are many species of ant in the desert. But, at this point I don't think it has been established with much certainty that a variation outside of Pogos is significant, other than perhaps Honey Pot ants, which appears to be incidental due to the fact that Honey Pots are scavengers and hang around Pogos in order to steal food from them.

Variation among other species of ant that may be found within their range is logical. It is recommended prey that is not even native in their area which concerns me.

For Europe, I recommend Messor barbarus to those who have asked, as they are a European harvester ant, which sustains on a very similar diet as the N. American variety. Mainly seeds and some fruits.

>>There are examples of cornutum in places like Florida, South >>Carolina,

Easy to explain those...the Pogonomyrmex badius is native to Florida and the Carolinas, often right around the sandy beach areas that the artificially introduced HLs have taken up residence. I often instruct new HL keepers who contact me about ants, to go look for P. badius in their own back yard.

>>and I've even heard of one that went through the summer in the >>great lakes area. These are certainly not regions native to the >>species currently. Although it could be the case that sometime >>in the distant past they were native to these areas so they may >>carry some natural resistance to micro-flora.
>>Do you have any literature on the subject?

No, I have been gathering more papers on the entomology side, but I would beg a copy of the particular case details first. Anything is possible, but could be non-reproduceable fluke as well. I imagine a HL probably find something to eat and stay alive one year in the wild in the North East, but it could just as easily partake of something that could kill it.

My primary concern is that with only a few anecdotal examples and simplistic reasoning, that new comers will get the idea to try anything. Long term health effects on these other feeders is also not conclusive at this point. What we do know, is that experience from nature shows without a doubt what HLs do eat, and when that food source is not present, HLs are not present.

Even in Fla and Carolinas, HLs only thrived in areas where a species of Pogo also was native. It is interesting that this happened...that one of the few examples of artificially introduced HLs that has been successful in establishing new populations, happened in an area of the country which just so happened to be inhabited by an eastern species of Pogo. Hasn't worked anywhere else, even in places where HLs used to inhabit, where Argentine army or Brazilian fire ants have now taken over.

>>I don't disagree with you that even the right ant species from a non-native location might offer issues. I am all for caution when trying out new things, whether they be ants or other insects, as you suggest. It would be helpful if we could put a name to the ants/insects known to cause issues.

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Wichita Falls Reptile Rescue
Harvester Ants

Sometimes "simplistic" is better when dealing with people that are new to this and can't understand the scientific jargon that seems to permeate some conversations here.
I have tried on a few occasions to identify the ants here I use, but it is a little complicated, and best left to people that have real education in this arena.:

When I am out collecting ants and come upon a hill that has orange ants on it, I pass it by.I mean orange, not redish or brown, seriously orange.Fire ants from the few hills I have seen are a certain color.I have ordered harvesters from a few different places and they are never orange.
Can we tell from a diet of this or that if an animal is really healthy.Visual observations of an outside appearance are not an accurate description.We have lots of animals/fish that we aquire in one form or another , that look good, but are full of dioxins, pcbs, insecticides,germs, etc.
It would not seem ethical to feed a horned lizard a certain diet, then kill it, have it analyzed and say, Ok , such and such diet must have been good for it.So I guess we observe them to see if things seem to be right , as best we can, and do the right thing.I got tired of buying ants in the winter months, and didnt like some of the collection methods I had been hearing about of people that aquire them at that time of year. So, when I gathered several thousand ants extra, I froze them and fed to my HL's over the winter.Some liked them better than chasing other bugs I had raised.I can afford to buy them, but why not try something a little different, and they readily cleaned them up, and the HL's "Looked Good" when summer arrived. scott

And sometimes being simplistic, you run the risk of your messages containing no usable information at all.

There are probably hundreds of genera of ants and thousands of species. Red, black, and orange are the predominant colors for probably more than 99% of the worlds ants, so this does not tell anyone much. The description of nest construction and habitat preferences where found would be more useful. Different ants like to build nests different ways, and in different areas and types of soil, and you don't have to have much education to use that information or understand it's importance.

I don't believe in talking down to people in simplistic terms and saving them from having to think or research. If someone's brain hurts at the thought of reading Latin or about identifying ants, or metabolic processes, then they probably should stick to just ordering what experience shows is good food, until they can learn a little more about HLs. Or stay away from HLs. If I use a word that is too big, well that's what google is for. Maybe they will learn something, how terrible is that!

Persons who don't make great keepers of reptiles, tend to be the people who are too bothered with details and learning "jargon". The majority of the breakthroughs and contributions to the husbandry of HLs has come from, and will always come from, those who have a little dedication to learn something technical and write in technical terms. Mark understands that, Collet understands that, I understand that; and so does anyone else who is taken seriously in this game.

Nobody took it easy on me, and that's how I learned, and learned well. When I jumped into snakes 20 years ago, I had to learn what an L. alterna and a C. atrox was, as everyone around me was speaking rapid fire Latin and taking shop. There are far too many common names for the same animals. Rather than go through all that trouble debating names ( like "Puff Adder" for what people around these parts also call a "Hognose snake" ), I prefer to use a common scientific vocabulary that is already established and used by the educated, because I seek to be educated.

One does not have to be a pedigreed academic, but some dedication to following scientific methods and understanding "jargon" is necessary, if one really wants to contribute something and be understood. Scientific "jargon" provides a common specific vocabulary, and I find it works much better than pointing and grunting, or saying "red".

I don't have a degree to my name, yet writing a 40 page manual on HLs has gotten professional herpetologists and zoologist contacting me to speak about what I have written. It got me an invite to speak at the International Herpetological Symposium, even though they already had Sherbrooke booked as well. I think that is a great honor and says something in itself to even be asked to present. I could not make it this year in time, but I plan to present next year in Mexico City. Not bad for someone who started learning HLs 5-6 years ago.

Why is identifying ants so hard? If you have the proper book, I see no reason why someone can't read that fancy book and understand pictures, the same as any wet-eared 20 year old college student can. I feel bad for those who only learned what they know from regurgitation and lecture, and had to have book contents explained to them. I can pretty well read a book, and figure it out without a professor holding my hand. Identification keys are not hard to follow. I also have 2 decades of field experience, which in my opinion, trumps a pedigree from a university any day.

"Real education" is a mindset, and you either have it or you don't. It isn't acquired in school.
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Wichita Falls Reptile Rescue
Harvester Ants

Mick--
Not replying to this message per se, but I have often had a concern and some related experiences that makes me think that ants from different areas (states) may carry in their systems micro-flora that say a HL from Arizona doesn't do well on? I have also made it a normal part of my regimen to panacur my HLs as I have found wild caught with nematodes and other various worms. I am not sure of this connection, but I do believe that one should be cognizant of the ants one is feeding his HL, if you live in Arizona and your HL's from Arizona then I would be more comfortable with that then say an Arizona HL in Texas like I do. While I have went through different processes with husbandry issues over the years, I have no actual empirical evidence of this, but I do have a gut feeling based on some of my experiences that indeed there is something to this.....Its like I used to travel in Baja quite a bit doing fishing, and there are certain foods that if you eat them your going to be sick, on the converse some of my Baja native friends will get sick when they come to L.A. and this has to do with the different "bugs"that are native to the areas? And yes I have experienced this first hand :0)....
I guess because its an ant that is a specie a HL eats in the wild, I think that watching your HL and illness may be tied to this possibly.... Again I suspect this but I have no real evidence. It would be interesting to have ant samples from different soils evaluated to see if there are any real significant differences or if an ant is an ant....... Cheers!
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I cannot prove or disprove that right now. There very well may be a difference in microflora, even between species of Pogos from one state to another. I almost expect it to be so. I would reckon the difference would be minimal however in most cases, as the climates and terrain in my case are similar to Az., and even closer in approximation to NM.

The area you live in contains much more ground foliage, trees, and a little higher humidity than where I am at. Here trees are sparse, and cacti and brush abound, and people grip about 20% humidity. I just got back from Houston, where it was more uncomfortable at 10pm @ 85F, than it was here yesterday afternoon at 107F.

It is possible that due to the more extensive vegetation and humidity where you are, that there may be a microflora difference given the soil, possibly fungal, or perhaps it is due to the diet of your local Pogos with a certain local plant.

Personally, since I have moved to this area, all HLs I have used these Pogos on have thrived and grown well. My solare just put on weight like it's nothing. I have gotten in underweight HLs from people who say they won't gain weight. Once they're here where they have an almost unlimited supply of Pogos, they gain 2 grams or more a week, and typically about 5-10g a month until they reach a certain healthy weight. My smallest solare is the baby, and she's over 50g now. My CB cornutum is finally breaking into his maturity and has jumped near 10 grams in a month or so.

I have a had a couple of visible nematode infestations, which are cured with Panacur, one bad outbreak of a gastric illness which 7 were sick and I saved all but the youngest one, and I've had a few cases of mouth abscess in solare, which I think is related to their fragile jaw structure, the abrasiveness of this particular sand with them, and the way they repeatedly rub their snouts against the glass.

Of course if one has a HL native to Az., then Az. Pogos would be an excellent first choice for food. Same with Nevada or anywhere else, but I don't think I have seen a problem yet per se with HLs being fed Pogos from other southwestern states. I urge more caution though when discussing ants that are a completely different genus and from a region that HLs are not native to at all.
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Wichita Falls Reptile Rescue
Harvester Ants

Well I thought I'd mention it, just for the heck of it. You also panacur your animals or just do it if it seems they need it? I have suspected in Medina County where I live we have what is called Belgian soils it is rich and dark type soil not too rocky, although in Texas their are rocks everywhere, but I have long suspected that it would be an excellent study for someone to take samples of ants from different areas even with in our own state Fireside and then have them evaluated. I think you also might be hitting on a probability too that it might indeed be fungal in nature. I'd love to see Dr. Snelling check this out.....
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Though you might have forgotten, I have advocated Panacur for HL nematode treatment since about 2004. It has been part of my protocol since about my second year keeping HLs

I recommend Panacur in my manual, and quarantine for 90 days, for all new incoming HLs, and twice yearly for HLs as maintenance. Once before hibernation so that parasites do not cause anemia while the HL is in hibernation, and once sometime after emerging from hibernation, after they are well hydrated and back to eating good. I also recommend as needed through the year if nematodes are ever discovered in the scat. I think Panacur is an important tool to have if you are going to do HLs in captivity, especially indoors. The stress of indoor habitats I think makes it a big necessity to have on hand.

I am currently retreating two of my most recently acquired solare with Panacur. One female had laid a clutch and seemed to be egg bound and listless, and disinterested in eating after passing a couple dozen eggs. I treated her for possible egg binding /impaction with a little mineral oil, gave warm water soaks, and extra hydration, as well as liquid calcium gluconate for any ca. deficiency suffered as a result of egg production. She began to perk up and eat a little again, and then a day or so later, I found a few nematodes in her scat, near 20mm in length. I treated her and her tank mate that night with 5 units liquid Panacur @ 100mg/ml, which will repeat in 2 weeks, and probably another 2 weeks after that. I should start seeing dead nematodes in the scat, but sometimes when there is a visible infestation like this, it takes several treatments to get rid of them.

I partially base my theory on the fungal issue, on the fact that certain fungi have been discussed in papers as being symbiotic to Pogos, and important to their colony development. I would just imagine, that somewhere which is relatively more humid and with more diverse ground vegetation, might offer a different fugal component, or much more of it...

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Wichita Falls Reptile Rescue
Harvester Ants

I haven't seen liquid panacur? I use safegaurd panacur from horses and a small dose on a cricket or wax worms they take it down and do o.k. with it. But liquid would be better? Now that I think of it, I do remember your post about panacur, we actually discussed this, I think you were using a powder at the time, which would work for insects as well if one goes that route. I just panacur my yellowhead this morning, I have him eating well and didn't want to stress him or handle him, so I went with the panacur paste and put it on a few crickets, I will do him several times in the next month and hopefully get him very healthy. He is eating well but his weight is not as nice as I would like it to be and I suspect this is the issue....

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This is a pretty interesting discussion.
Regarding non-native ants, I know of many folks in Europe that have had very good and prolonged success feeding Lasius Niger.
Their success includes solare, cornutum, taurus, hernandesi, platyrhinos, and modestum. So non-native, non-harvester type ants can suffice for horned lizard care without a doubt.
Our good friend in the north east has also had great success with his local ants, which are not harvester ants. I would say again that caution is warranted though.

Regarding pathogens in various locations, I too have given this some consideration. I have seen a rise in parasites when ants from certain localities are used. State boundaries are probably poor definitions for designating localities as AZ has quite a variation in terrain. Anything from barren desert sand and creosote, to plains grassland, to PJ, to Pine forests. All of these areas have differing flora and fauna, not to mention temperature gradients and average rainfall. It would be a great study, regarding the differing parasites in each, but this is beyond my means.

FS and Lou, both of your treatment regimens are interesting. I have to wonder if your local ants might be causing some issues. I almost never treat my HLs and have had possibly 2 cases over the 6 years of my experience where it might have helped save a lizard. I have had lizards that I have kept for 5 years without any type of treatment at all with no ill effects. Lester is actually the one who put me on this path early on. If I remember correctly, his advice was that nematodes are a normal part of an HLs life cycle and a healthy HL will not be impacted significantly by them.
I don't say this to take away from your methods or disparage them. It's just another persons observation over time.

There are so many factors that come into play in keeping these guys healthy, it would take a dedicated long term study to know which method might prove more profitable in keeping lizards healthy.

Good discussion!
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Also, wanted to ask if you worry at all that panacure might not affect beneficial internal bacteria or otherwise upset the digestion workings?
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I have never had any such adverse issues in 4 years, nor heard such feedback from anyone who followed my advice, which indicated a lack of appetite or gastric illness subsequent to Panacur treatment.

Panacur is not an antibiotic and veterinary studies have shown it to have "no significant antibacterial activity", therefore it would not adversely affect gut flora based on literature I have seen. It's method of action is not similar to most bacterostatic antibiotics, which usually inhibit DNA replication.

Fenbendazole is widely known as one of the safest antiparasitics on the market, and is used all the time for a wide variety of animals. Clinical tests on most animals reveal that the LD50 can be as high as 10-400 times the recommended label dose, and often require dosing in this amount repeatedly over the course of several days to cause significant harm. A study in cats published by the American Journal of Veterinary Research indicated that even cats dosed at 5 times the recommended dose for 3 times the duration, resulted in no ill effects. Cats, it should be noted, are often highly sensitive to medications that are considered safe for other animals, and many medicines that are perfectly safe in dogs or people, are fatal in cats.

I have seen no evidence of adverse effect on gut flora in reptiles. To the contrary, my female solare which did not want to eat, move, or burrow most of last week, began head bobbing and regained her appetite and ate approx. 200 Pogos just 2 days after treatment with Panacur. There are many people who use Panacur in reptiles. One only need browse Melissa Kaplan's anapsid.org site to find reference to it, and much of her content is based on veterinary journal sources and used directly on the Veterinary Information Network as well.

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Wichita Falls Reptile Rescue
Harvester Ants

Given the amount of ants I have used ( about 1000 a day to feed my HLs over the last 2 years ), there is not an issue with the ants I am using. I get a visible nematode infestation every 2 years or so, which is insignificant in my opinion considering captive stress and the amount of ants they consume. It is merely prevention in most cases, especially for new comers.

I also highly doubt there is any significant difference between nematodes found here and found elsewhere in harvester ants in other parts of the southwest. The scientific information I recall, indicated that they are the same species which infest Pogos and HLs in examples from across the SW.

I realize nematodes are a normal part of the "natural" cycle...
but when you get into captive issues, that is no longer a "natural" cycle.

Nematodes are part of the natural cycle outside of captivity where HLs roam in a much larger home range, are not subject to captive stress on sometimes a daily basis in smaller quarters like aquariums or even outdoor pens, and are not subjected to feeding close quarters all the time in the same area they and others have been defecating in. Captive HLs reside in close proximity to their own feces, even in outdoor enclosures, which increases the chance many fold that they will reinfect themselves or infect others. Captive HLs are subjected to more stresses which increase cortisol production, which then desensitizes the cellular response to it over time, which then results in a depressed immune state, and this results in parasite bloom well above and beyond what is found in nature in wild HLs. It really has nothing to do with the difference in regional harvester ants in my opinion.

A healthy HL living in the wild may not be significantly impacted by nematodes, I think is what should be said. In captivity however, it is well known by other long time herps keepers, not just with HLs, that captive stresses often result in increased parasite infestations. This is true of snakes and many other lizards.

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Harvester Ants

"I also highly doubt there is any significant difference between nematodes found here and found elsewhere in harvester ants in other parts of the southwest. The scientific information I recall, indicated that they are the same species which infest Pogos and HLs in examples from across the SW."

I agree that the nematodes are probably the same or very similar, but this may not be the only factor. As you mentioned, bacteria and other components may come into play.

"Nematodes are part of the natural cycle outside of captivity where HLs roam in a much larger home range, are not subject to captive stress on sometimes a daily basis in smaller quarters like aquariums or even outdoor pens, and are not subjected to feeding close quarters all the time in the same area they and others have been defecating in. Captive HLs reside in close proximity to their own feces, even in outdoor enclosures, which increases the chance many fold that they will reinfect themselves or infect others."

I disagree on this point to some extent. I have had the opportunity to observe natural solare habitat including the lizards behaviors and the ants they consume. It is very typical here to find groupings of scat within 15 feet of an ant nest, and these usually within a few feet of each other. So it would appear the lizard is sleeping nearby and will more or less follow the same feeding/defecating routine for several days. As you know they will lick at objects nearby. So they are in close proximity to their own feces on a regular basis. This also puts the feces and thereby the expelled worms well within the foraging patterns of the nearby ant nest. The loop is very tight. One could make an argument that a well maintained indoor enclosure might actually be cleaner than this wild scenario.

"Captive HLs are subjected to more stresses which increase cortisol production, which then desensitizes the cellular response to it over time, which then results in a depressed immune state, *and this results in parasite bloom well above and beyond what is found in nature in wild HLs. It really has nothing to do with the difference in regional harvester ants in my opinion."

I would say there is a difference between CB and Wild captives in stress levels. CBs have never known anything different. *Is this an anecdotal conclusion or is there literature? It would be interesting to understand the controls used.

A healthy HL living in the wild may not be significantly impacted by nematodes, I think is what should be said. In captivity however, it is well known by other long time herps keepers, not just with HLs, that captive stresses often result in increased parasite infestations. This is true of snakes and many other lizards.

Again, it hasn't been my experience that there is increased infestation. I have had wild caught and captives both expel worms at various times, and I usually do not treat them. I do not tend to see a prolonged and repeated issue in either case.

I can see that your mind is set on the issue and that seems to be working for you. It's good then. I may do some further testing with this on my animals. I find it curious that I am reluctant to test this on any of my favorite animals. I guess I am not convinced just yet.
All of this boils down to anecdotal observation, but it all has value in this particular community and it's good that differing views can be considered. Thanks for posting your views.

"I also highly doubt there is any significant difference between nematodes found here and found elsewhere in harvester ants in other parts of the southwest. The scientific information I recall, indicated that they are the same species which infest Pogos and HLs in examples from across the SW"

>>I agree that the nematodes are probably the same or very >>similar, but this may not be the only factor. As you >>mentioned, bacteria and other components may come into play.

FS3: I was speculating as to fungal or other possible plant based component as a possible difference, to explain Reptoman's previous concerns about different microflora between Pogos in different regions. I never agreed that there was a problem or that any difference was significant. It seems he theorizes there may be a problem with his local Pogos, or with the soil, and I am offering to explain how that might be so, but I have had no such troubles or suspicions of troubles with Pogos in this area, the soil, nor with nematodes. With few exceptions, usually during times to be expected anyway ( such as hibernation ), my HLs pretty well stay healthy all year round.

I have seen no repeatedly high incidences of nematode infestation to cause me alarm, and I am very protective and watchful for issues with my HLs. In other words, I do not think that local harvester ants are a problem as you suggested, at least in my case.

Of course, a significant enough microflora disturbance could lead to lowered immune response, allowing for proliferation of parasites above safe levels, but the microflora difference being significant enough to cause that disturbance is conjecture at this point; and also being a Texas native, I cannot concur at this time on the theory that any difference in microflora in the soil or on Pogos where I am, is significant as to adversely affect HLs that are native to other areas. I have nothing to corroborate that suspicion yet.

It may be the case in Reptoman's situation with solare. His region is a little more green and I think a little more humid on average than where I am. It was 110F here yesterday, and I praised it for feeling so much better that my recent weekend in Houston.

These microflora theories nevertheless have nothing to do with the efficacy and safety of Panacur in HLs for nematodes. It is still conjecture at this point that microflora differences between Pogos are even significant, much less jump to the conclusion that they might be responsible for nematode troubles.

Others have raised the question though about microflora, and I used it as an example to illustrate that if there is question about same species of Pogos from different areas, then perhaps using a completely different genus of ant from somewhere completely foreign to HLs might not be a good idea.

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"Nematodes are part of the natural cycle outside of captivity where HLs roam in a much larger home range, are not subject to captive stress on sometimes a daily basis in smaller quarters like aquariums or even outdoor pens, and are not subjected to feeding close quarters all the time in the same area they and others have been defecating in. Captive HLs reside in close proximity to their own feces, even in outdoor enclosures, which increases the chance many fold that they will reinfect themselves or infect others."

>>I disagree on this point to some extent. I have had the >>opportunity to observe natural solare habitat including the >>lizards behaviors and the ants they consume. It is very >>typical here to find groupings of scat within 15 feet of an ant >>nest, and these usually within a few feet of each other. So it >>would appear the lizard is sleeping nearby and will more or >>less follow the same feeding/defecating routine for several >>days. As you know they will lick at objects nearby. So they >>are in close proximity to their own feces on a regular basis. >>This also puts the feces and thereby the expelled worms well >>within the foraging patterns of the nearby ant nest. The loop >>is very tight. One could make an argument that a well >>maintained indoor enclosure might actually be cleaner than this >>wild scenario.

FS3: My observations are that the scat tends to be deposited some distance away from the immediate area where HLs eat, and 15 ft is a good distance. Even 2-3ft. is significant to this question. It may only be a hop and a jump for us, but that distance is highly relative to the HL.

I find scat tends to be on the periphery of the colony, in an area that may be safe for the HL to divert its attention from the ants long enough to do his business without fear of being attacked. It seems they do their business most often while coming or going to and from the colony location. They also do not defecate routinely on the foraging trails that they use to hunt on in the wild. This makes a difference too, as in the aquarium or the outdoor pen there is no foraging trail. HLs defecate anywhere, and Pogos roam everywhere too without a trail to follow.

HLs in the wild also roam between different colonies and may not visit the same one for some time, giving nature time to do it's cleaning.

The HL density is almost always greater in captivity. No matter how large the enclosure is, the fact remains that in the wild they would have more room per animal. You can try to keep your pen clean, and it may very well be quite clean for an enclosure; but it is still an 8x8 area or whatever, and in the wild they would have much more space, and thus much less dirty area to worry about traipsing over continually.

What might be the effects of repeated deposits of HL waste in the same 8x8 ( example ) area over a matter of years in that outdoor pen?

Even if you sifted and tried to keep the soil clean. At least in an aquarium, the substrate can be discarded and the tank disinfected regularly. You cannot do that very well in a pen. I would have to disagree that you could keep a pen cleaner than the wild. I grew up around ranches and farms, and I have never seen a case of a outdoor pen of any sort that was cleaner than the free range. Unless you have modified it such as to remove a few inches of soil and replace occasionally and disinfect.

I'm not knocking outdoor enclosures. I think for the most part if you have a good climate for it, then that's the way to go. But, unless you have done some fancy modifications to it to provide for substrate changes, I have to dispute the argument that you can keep it cleaner than an equivalent space in the wild! C'mon. That's just ridiculous. It defies logic.

Even if an equivalent space in the wild happened to be dirtier, HLs don't reside in that 8x8 space 24-7 in the wild. They come and go. They don't have the option to get that far away from everyone's crap in an enclosed space.

And even if they ingested fecal matter in the wild...even regularly...the fact remains that the captive stresses are not there, which is often the key to parasite proliferation getting out of hand to begin with. They may ingest fecal matter left and right, and it not be a problem what-so-ever for the wild HL...but it can and does become a problem for the captive one.

===============================================================

"Captive HLs are subjected to more stresses which increase cortisol production, which then desensitizes the cellular response to it over time, which then results in a depressed immune state, *and this results in parasite bloom well above and beyond what is found in nature in wild HLs. It really has nothing to do with the difference in regional harvester ants in my opinion."

>>I would say there is a difference between CB and Wild captives in stress levels. CBs have never known anything different. *Is this an anecdotal conclusion or is there literature? It would be interesting to understand the controls used.
>>

FS3: Not necessarily true. They are still wild animals, and they are still reptiles, probably the most basically instinctual animal that is commonly kept as a pet. You can't breed that out of them in a few short years. It takes longer to set breed traits in dogs, which are highly intelligent and much better understood.

It took decades or centuries in some cases to domesticate animals. People and household animals are still routinely attacked by wolf hybrids that snap, even though people have been captive breeding wolfs to domestic dogs for many many years. Now, you're talking reptiles, which is a whole new ball game. I assure you, you haven't bred the stress out of them yet. The effects may be marginally different in some HL species, and more in others, but you are dealing with an animal that is going to be adversely stressed by captivity, even if it was captive bred. At least for the foreseeable future.

Though a CB HL ( for a given species ) may be relatively less stressed than a WC one, they are still stressed, and that stress still has an impact on them. In the case of the CB cornutum, he is actually more skittish than even some of the wild cornutum. Certainly more skittish than the other species wild or not. Yet, all he has known all his life is being given food by people and people being around. On the other hand, I have wild solare and hernandesi that will come take the food from your hand.

================================================================

"A healthy HL living in the wild may not be significantly impacted by nematodes, I think is what should be said. In captivity however, it is well known by other long time herps keepers, not just with HLs, that captive stresses often result in increased parasite infestations. This is true of snakes and many other lizards."

>>Again, it hasn't been my experience that there is increased infestation.

FS3: Sorry, but that is where I have to call trump on experience. Your experience would be contrary to the experience of most who have kept anything WC, or CB residing with something WC without being treated and quarantined. I have been handling everything from turtles, to lizards, to snakes since about the mid 80s. It is common knowledge about wild reptiles, and when you have CB residing outdoors and with other wild animals, they become exposed to wild things. Captive stress unquestionably has a depressive effect on immune function, and that can and does often allow for parasites to get out of control with an animal that is stressed enough. That is science that I can back with literature.

There may be a beneficial offset to reducing stress with outdoor enclosures vs. indoor terrariums, but the net result of captivity is usually more parasites and illness if you don't treat for anything, ever. There is also the offset that in indoor setups you have the benefit of spotting things you might not in an outdoor setup.

=================================================================

>>I have had wild caught and captives both expel worms at various times, and I usually do not treat them.

FS3: I am all for the least intervention with medicine as possible in most cases, but in the case of visible infestation with worms, which attach to the intestinal walls and steal nutrients from the lizard, almost anyone is going to treat their animal rather than let them suffer with a worm infestation. Panacur is done as accepted and safe practice for everything from livestock to cats and dogs, and also reptiles. Turtles, tortoises, Bearded Dragons, snakes of all types routinely get treated for parasites at the vet with Panacur.

================================================================

>>I can see that your mind is set on the issue and that seems to be working for you. It's good then. I may do some further testing with this on my animals. I find it curious that I am reluctant to test this on any of my favorite animals. I guess I am not convinced just yet.

FS3: If I thought there were a greater risk of treating with Panacur that letting them go with nematodes, then I would not administer or support a treatment that is questionable or potentially harmful to HLs.

=================================================================

>>All of this boils down to anecdotal observation..."

FS3: In this case it is a bit more than anecdotal or even observation. I can back up the safety and efficacy of Panacur with veterinary journals and clinical studies, as well as offer testimony now for several years that I have been using it, and other experienced herp keepers have used it.

I encourage anyone to do their own research if they question it's safety. I did, and I came to my independent conclusions that given that nematodes are known intermediate hosts of Pogos, it was better to be marginally invasive a couple of times a year and deworm HLs with a known safe dewormer, than not treat them and risk a parasite bloom which might cause them anemia and kill them.
-----
www.groups.yahoo.com/group/HornedLizards
www.youtube.com/user/PhrynosomaTexas
Wichita Falls Reptile Rescue
Harvester Ants

Maybe you were in a hurry, but you've misread or misinterpreted a few of my points.

But no need to hash it out. It's all good. You've done a bit of convincing for me, so I plan to give it more consideration.
I do have another question for you. Since we are feeding wild pogos in good quantity on a daily basis, how did you come to the conclusion that treating twice yearly is optimal and/or sufficient?

I will look over again later to see if I misread something. There were many points to address.

As to the question, I just started out with as few treatments as possible and tried to use it only when necessary, such as when I saw an infestation. I soon found it to be sound judgment to treat any new incoming HLs as prophylaxis; both against any captive or move induced stress within the first 3 months, which seems to be a common factor for parasite proliferation. This also helps protect the already established population here from a new comer bringing something in.

After having a solare get ill in hibernation and discovering a nematode infestation, I did some research and realized that any nematodes a HL has when going into hibernation, will still be active and continue to steal nutrients from the dormant lizard and could starve them to death while they are asleep, and/or cause an anemic condition. After treatment and getting him to pass a big huge pile of nematodes over the next 2 weeks, I decided to add pre-hibernation treatment to the list.

I also began to suspect possible nematode issues after emergence from hibernation, which might be causing disinterest in eating even after coming up and being properly hydrated and cycled back to proper lighting and temps. I found positive results with temporarily changing prey in some cases, and in some cases a dose of Panacur seemed to bring them around. This post-hibernation treatment I consider more optional, but I recommend treatment if nematodes are discovered subsequent. I have started to lean more toward Bene-Bac treatment after emergence from hibernation to help bring gut flora back up, and I lean heavily on rehydration.

I can't say for certain that twice yearly is optimal, or that it is always sufficient. It depends on the individual HL and it's state of health at a given time, just as much as any environmental factors. This is still an evolution, but to date I can say that my research and observations have led me to conclude that Panacur is warranted or advisable under the following:

*Newcomer/quarantine
*Pre-hibernation
*Post-hibernation ( option )
*As needed upon discovery of nematodes or in suspected cases of illness that are not improved by antibiotics or other treatment.

>>Maybe you were in a hurry, but you've misread or misinterpreted a few of my points.
>>
>>But no need to hash it out. It's all good. You've done a bit of convincing for me, so I plan to give it more consideration.
>>I do have another question for you. Since we are feeding wild pogos in good quantity on a daily basis, how did you come to the conclusion that treating twice yearly is optimal and/or sufficient?

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www.youtube.com/user/PhrynosomaTexas
Wichita Falls Reptile Rescue
Harvester Ants

OK, I see one thing. You had commented on the scat being within Pogo] foraging range, rather than being in proximity to the HL while it forages for ants.

This is an interesting point. If your HL enclosure does not
have an established Pogo colony nearby to which the ants may
be foraging heavily around the HL scat in the enclosure, and instead you are simply using feeders which are introduced into the enclosure at feeding time, and you are keeping the sand relatively clean of scat...I can see how one might make the
point that the enclosure scenario may provide less opportunity
to re-ingest if the ants aren't there to forage the nematodes. But, I'm not sure how much so, if at all. It just might mean your ants are cleaner, not the ground your HLs walk on.

The ants may not be there long enough to forage and pick up nematodes, but adult forms and eggs may still be shed into the surrounding sand from the scat, which through normal course of walking about and licking the sand, the HLs could reinfect themselves without ants being there at all.

The ants also would not be there to clean it up, and unless the sand is sifted well or replaced on occasion, one could also make the counter point that the enclosure scenario is dirtier because it is close quarters and there are not the amount of beneficial insects removing all the nematodes that are shed from defecation into the soil.

>>Maybe you were in a hurry, but you've misread or misinterpreted a few of my points.
>>
>>But no need to hash it out. It's all good. You've done a bit of convincing for me, so I plan to give it more consideration.
>>I do have another question for you. Since we are feeding wild pogos in good quantity on a daily basis, how did you come to the conclusion that treating twice yearly is optimal and/or sufficient?
-----
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Wichita Falls Reptile Rescue
Harvester Ants

I have been able to find a liquid panacur (safeguard). The place I was able to find it was Cal-Ranch its for goats I believe (at least thats what there is a picture of on it)

It is important to pay attention to the concentration of the liquid you get. Large animal vets tend to use 22.2% or 222mg/ml, small animal vets tend to use 10% or 100mg/ml.
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Wichita Falls Reptile Rescue
Harvester Ants

The liquid starts out as powder, usually 22.2% or 222mg fenbendazole per gram of Panacur, to which you add distilled water. You could use it in powder form I suppose, but the amounts would be so small, that you would need a scale that measures in grains.

I find liquid to be easier to use, and just inject it by insulin syringe into a mealworm or cricket. The paste I see a slight problem with not only it possibly attracting debris which gets stuck to the prey, but mainly because the max dose for say a 50g HL at 100mg/ml would be .05cc or 5 units. Those large horse tubes of Panacur don't come marked in units, so you would have to load it down into a syringe that is marked in units...see how messy this could get?

Handsome fella there. I'd also suggest Bene-Bac powder dusted onto some crickets too. Stress can not only result in parasite bloom, but mess with the gut flora.

-----
www.groups.yahoo.com/group/HornedLizards
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Wichita Falls Reptile Rescue
Harvester Ants

Mark as a general rule I do panacur most of my lizards twice a year, I do believe their is a benefit, and while the discussion went right to nematodes, there are other issues possible such as Fireside is suggesting, our soil here is not desert soil it is Belgian soil which is dark rich soil which I beleive does harbor possibly fungal or even other types of possible ingestants. So I am of the opinion that it might be a good thing always to panacur any wild caught, I just did this to my new yellow head collared after he started eating and has settled down. Actually we have discussed this in the past, I only suggested that it would be interesting of Dr. Snelling or others could comment on this. Or possibly take samples from different areas and actually do a microscopic analysis of some of these different ants. I think it would be facsinating, and I notice that your comment is that your lizards in Arizona do well with not doing anything. Well when I have received wild caught horned lizards here and they are mice and fat, I notice there is a period of time where they lose weight and then I don't believe my ants here are dangerous, thats not the case but I think there is a period of time where they need to get used of the ants here. Maybe this is stupid, certainly its not scientific and just a conjecture on my part, but Mark I have seen this enough to be comfortable with this as a possible explanation, because I do find some reason these lizards lose weight and it takes time to get them up and running. With respect to many or most lizard species it is a normal regimen to panacur a wild caught animal. I usually let them settle down and get acclimated first, but as a general rule I do....ALso Fireside, I have a little secondary 2 ft x 16" plastic container with a clamp light and put my hl's on paper (Paper towel) and give them laced crickets. I want to get some liquid panacur but haven't found it, I will check tractor supply to see if they have it, but then one must be careful with doses. For the sake of this conversation and the sake of those who are intersted in taking good care of their HL's could I suggest if this wouldn't be an imposition and could we take pictures of our methods for panacur, and if you use a dropper or syringe. what size and maybe show a dose, so all of us could be getting nformation that is viable. I don't think many of us Fireside (since this is your are of expertise) understand the dosing, not that we are dumb but usual or often we leave this up to a vet instead of ourselves, however in this case I think it would be helpful to everyone who has chimed in on this if this might be posted either on your site or ours or both with an explanation. IS that something we could do? OR not? Does Melissa Kaplan gave a dose per gram weight of the animal on her site? Just curious. What do you all think?????
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www.phrynosoma.org

I'm up for it Lou. I'll commit to posting a page on the website about it.
I have some old information on dosing, but I'm not sure how good it is specific to HLs. It was given to me by a friend as ASU.
I'll have to do some digging.

Yes, Lou it just so happens I just had some pictures taken during my last treatments so that I could post them soon.

Kaplan lists dose on her site. You can find the information by doing a google for "common reptile drugs". It will come up number 1 in google. But, you can find it elsewhere too. The dosage is 50-100mg/kg.

Assuming you have 10% Panacur ( fenbendazole ) or 100mg/ml concentration: Low side dose, or maintenance dose I refer to it, is 50mg/kg, which for example would amount to .025cc or 2.5 units for a 50g HL.

The high dose will I use pre-hibernation, with new incoming or wild herps, and anytime I spot an infestation. That is 100mg/kg or would amount to .05cc or 5 units for a 50g HL.

I've run through this in a post a few years ago, but you figure this by the formula ( dose x weight / concentration ). For example, a 50g HL you just discovered has nematodes, and you have 100mg/ml concentration fenbendazole. 100mg/kg x .05kg ( 50g/1000=.05kg ) / 100mg/ml = .05cc ( 5 units ).

The period that you are noticing that the reptiles initially go through in the early stages a few months into captivity...this is in fact the very stress related depressive immune effect I am referring to.

See, the reptile is initially stressed very much in the beginning, and it takes some time for these effects to be seen and the body to actually become desensitized to cortisol production, which in the beginning actually gives the animal a burst of energy and boost in immunity. When that desensitization happens though, it will depress immune function and can result in harmful microflora and parasites such as nematodes taking advantage and getting out of control. This is the "opportunity" that opportunistic parasites and pathogens wait for.
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www.youtube.com/user/PhrynosomaTexas
Wichita Falls Reptile Rescue
Harvester Ants

Just to reiterate my whole point to begin with, it is the stress of captivity itself which is the biggest factor for making nematodes and other illnesses an issue in the early stages of captivity or a move.

Better than Panacur, is a little prevention, which in the case of HLs will have much to do with either not taking them from the wild at all, or at least not handling them and hawking over them all the time like they are a cat, dog, or other conventional pet. Whatever you can do to reduce stress can help reduce the amount of Panacur you might be using later.

Eating a lot of ants though, I expect my solare to have some occasional nematode issues regardless, and in fact it has been the solare which have really shown the only nematode related issues in the last few years. Since they do not appear outwardly as stressed as other species, and seem to settle in captivity quite well, I more so attribute their issues with nematodes to be related to the staggering numbers of ants I feed them everyday.

In this respect, the reason Mark may not be seeing such problems with nematodes, is that the outdoor enclosure does not make these problems as noticeable, but the outdoor enclosure is beneficial to reduction of high stress and preventing seriously depressed immune response as a result too.

Both statements are facts. The outdoor enclosure is not as easy to study them closely on some issues, but it can keep stress lower than for many indoor setups. Is this low stress factor enough to offset the cleanliness and fecal-oral infection question of the enclosure though?
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Wichita Falls Reptile Rescue
Harvester Ants

I am on board with treating. At least in a trial period (which will likely last a few years). I spoke with a friend of mine at ASU who manages a lot of reptiles both at home and at work. His regimen is once a year, or as needed. He also mentioned that this may cause a slight strain on liver and kidney function, so hydration is important. Especially with desert species, as they don't tend to "flush" their systems as frequently as other reptiles or amphibians do. He recommended soaking. He also mentioned it may take weeks for some pests to be eliminated, so he recommended not doing this too close to hibernation as this cure could be worse than the disease in that case. Dead parasites in a hibernating reptile will likely cause death.
So I am going to begin some testing of this. I think it's a good idea. I'll take notes and photos and post it to www.phrynosoma.org and I welcome any others who want to do similar work to submit it for posting.

Below is the previous post I made:

""(FS)Nematodes are part of the natural cycle outside of captivity where HLs roam in a much larger home range, are not subject to captive stress on sometimes a daily basis in smaller quarters like aquariums or even outdoor pens, and are not subjected to feeding close quarters all the time in the same area they and others have been defecating in. Captive HLs reside in close proximity to their own feces, even in outdoor enclosures, which increases the chance many fold that they will reinfect themselves or infect others."

(Mark)I disagree on this point to some extent. I have had the opportunity to observe natural solare habitat including the lizards behaviors and the ants they consume. It is very typical here to find groupings of scat within 15 feet of an ant nest, and these usually within a few feet of each other. So it would appear the lizard is sleeping nearby and will more or less follow the same feeding/defecating routine for several days. As you know they will lick at objects nearby. So they are in close proximity to their own feces on a regular basis. This also puts the feces and thereby the expelled worms well within the foraging patterns of the nearby ant nest. The loop is very tight. One could make an argument that a well maintained indoor enclosure might actually be cleaner than this wild scenario."

So we were talking about both indoor and outdoor enclosures here. But the specific point I made at the end is about indoor cages. No big deal.

It is an interesting conversation though. To be honest I hadn't given a ton of directed thought at wild HL and their eating / defecating patterns until this came up. What I typically see is a pattern of defecation at a periphery of about 15 feet from a rogusus mound. These will be in a relatively small grouping, usually not more than 5 feet around, and often much closer. If it is fresh enough you can actually see the age difference between them, and it seems to be that they are a day apart. This my be near one large rugosus nest, or between two or three.
As you know, solare tend to defecate once they warm up in the morning. In the wild they have two well defined feeding times. In the morning, and then again in late evening, up until there is no more daylight in the sky.
It is pure conjecture on our part (at least on my part) that HLs might become reinfected by sniffing (licking) at their feces. It seems reasonable, but I know of no studies. We do know that the ants are a part of the actual parasitic cycle. So my point was mainly that the ants will forage the scat and pick up the worm casing which contain eggs and begin the cycle again.
I have some papers on this if you are interested (If I didn't already send them to you).

I always support extra hydration therapy anytime you give drugs.
That is always a good idea. It is imperative with certain antibiotics, or you can very easily cause renal or liver damage, and in some cases other side effects, such as skin and eye injuries or joint tissue damage.

This is a course I have seriously studied since I started an animal rescue and began veterinary treatments for most things in-house, because most vets just don't know all they should about herps. I have actually become so specialized and familiar with some treatments, that I have had a few veterinarians consult with me about another person's ill reptile. I have saved quite a few from bad advice from a vet too. For example, if Randy had listened to his vet about force feeding whole prey to a sick 2g juvenile instead of listening to my recommendations to use liquid formula and Bene-Bac, his little "Jon" MSHL would be dead now. I consulted as a second opinion for a school teacher here earlier in the year, on the school's 4ft. Iguana who had a toe issue. The vet charged hundreds, and wanted hundreds more to do cancer biopsies! I cleaned and examined it and concluded it was simply an abscessed wound from getting his toe injured in his terrarium climbing about the bamboo, and I recommended an antibiotic and wound treatments. He was fine in a month. "Cancer" mysteriously in remission!

With my pre-hibernation protocol, in my HL manual, I have already been recommending Panacur treatment at least 2 months before expected hibernation. And with the additional hydration therapy that I recommend in the month preceding hibernation, this gives plenty of opportunity to flush the system. I already warn people of the dangers of not fasting the HLs and flushing the bowels, as any undigested material can cause a septic condition and illness while they are down. I have been talking about that for some time here and other places if you recall.

On the post...ok, "indoor". I usually don't expect "indoor" and "enclosure" to be used together, and I was expecting you to be discussing the conditions of your outdoor "enclosure". My bad.

But, my statement still stands that decreasing space and limiting movements is going to increase chances of illness and parasites. You can help weigh against that with an indoor tank by frequent substrate changing and disinfecting the tank and decor, but they are still going to be much more closely living around their fecal waste and the bacteria and parasites that this brings. And unless you are jumping right on those cleanings every time there is waste, then the chances for re-infection or cross contamination go up in such confined spaces.

>>It is pure conjecture on our part (at least on my part) that HLs might become reinfected by sniffing (licking) at their feces. It seems reasonable, but I know of no studies.

Actually, it is pretty well accepted in veterinary science, that oral-fecal route is one of the number one pathways of parasite infection. Parasite eggs are also shed in the feces, and this is what is looked for in fecal flotations. An animal licking the feces or substrate upon which feces has rested, runs the risk of ingesting parasite eggs.
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Wichita Falls Reptile Rescue
Harvester Ants

Thanks for the discussion and advice Mike.

In addition, as I warn people who read any such information in my HL manual, the methods and treatments I discuss here are not intended to be performed by persons inexperienced with intermediate to advanced level veterinary care for their animals. I discuss Panacur and other treatments of reptiles here, as an advanced reptile keeper, with intermediate veterinary skills. I am a reptile rescuer, have 2 decades of experience with reptiles, and I consult appropriate veterinary journals, databases, formularies, and have access to veterinary manuals.

Most of my information on these topics is meant for advanced keepers, not novices on their first reptile. I may give advice or walk someone through something if it is an emergency or no reptile vet is available in their area, but as I have told many, many people: "I am not here to help you avoid a vet bill". Most people should see a veterinarian to have their animals treated for parasites, where fecal exams can be conducted and the dosage is more likely to be correct.
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Wichita Falls Reptile Rescue
Harvester Ants