Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hello! Does anyone know or know where to find the laws on owning CB woods an spotteds in PA? Do you need a permit and if so does anyone know who to cantact? Thanks!

I forget PA's regulations, but I think they may have switched to a NO POSSESSION policy that may include captive bred animals. Unfortunately, people skirting these sort of regulations leave states with little choice. Its much easier to pass a moratorium than it is police individuals on a case by case basis. Its frustrating, but they DO have their/your native wildlife's best interests in mind... which is difficult to argue with.

Yeah... here you go, check out this link.

http://www.fish.state.pa.us/fishpub/summary/repamp.html

If they actually have the turtles' best interest in mind, that would make them unlike, say, Massachusetts, which has a similar "No Possession" position on spotted, box, wood, blandings, and bog turtles. Illegal to own (unless it's a grandfathered animal from the 90's), but thanks to the removal of spotted turtles' Species of Special Concern status last year, easier and easier to build a Wal-Mart on top of.
But I'm sure that would never happen anywhere else...

I live in Mass. and I'm pretty sure anything native to the state other than snappers, painteds, and muds (which I've never even seen)are not to be kept or sold.As for grandfathered in I've never heard that.My spotteds are actually painteds with a lot of yellow spots.Ya can't even get a permit which is stupid if ya ask me.If people got a permit and bought only captive born turtles, the state could use the permit money for conservation land,and other areas to protect the wild populations of spotteds and bogs.Just my 2cents

I don't disagree with that. Especially with using permit money towards land/habitat conservation. My contention wasn't that its in the best interest that NO animals be possessed. I was merely stating that folks possessing/collecting/selling animals under a guise of "captive bred" inevitably lead to distrust and difficulty in enforcing regulations. The end result being that it is easier to enforce NO POSSESSION laws than it is to regulate a legal captive bred trade. Ultimately, I'm for whatever best conserves the species. That said, money certainly has a way of bypassing these "best interests" when it comes time to build those strip malls. However, I would blame that on politicians not the wildlife officials. ...my 2 cents.

I think regulating the trade of selling, breeding,w/e it may be ,is pretty much impossible to do.There's some turtles on here on the classifieds that are TOTALLY illegal to have never mind sell them.When it comes to money, the turtles will always lose. On another note, They built a new highway here and the enviromental ppl stepped in to say *no way*..spotted, bog, and EBT breeding grounds all over the place.They actually got the gov. to raise the road level and put *turtle tunnels* under the road way.So I guess chalk 1 up for the turtles.Your spotteds feet looking any better Emy?

Glad to hear that those turtles have received at least some consideration. Not a perfect solution, but those turtle tunnels are better than nothing I suppose. Disturbing to hear that they would put a highway through such a sensitive area, particularly if Bog Turtles are actually living/breeding there.

Makes you wonder whether folks collecting and selling wild turtles, particularly species at risk, really don't care; or just don't realize how significantly they are actually impacting populations already under stress.

My female's feet are looking much better. Thanks for asking. I'll have to keep on top of it, of course, but they are healing up nicely. I wish I could build them the outdoor pond/enclosure I'd really like to put them in. It'll have to wait though.

I don't think the people collecting these animals really care at all about anything other than there wallets.I've been sitting here this morning for about 4 hrs now reading about the export of turtles to china,and the asian turtles that are illegaly coming to the U.S. The number of turtles involved numbering near 1 billion (still can't get over the #'s)there can't possibly be anyway that organizations could put a complete stop to it.There are 3 species being sold on KS rite now that aren't even supposed to be in the country from what I'm reading..except for zoos I'ld imagine.I was looking for some old articles on that highway..there was pics of bogs, EBTs,and spotteds in the news papers when they where building the road, so they know for a fact there living and breeding there.The tunnel system is very cool.They are pretty big (could probally drive a car thru them.)There used for deer too, and the sides of the road are very steep so theres almost no road kill,if any.

zzzdanz, those turtle tunnels sound great, and I hope they do the trick. There are so many areas in Mass that used to be heaven on earth for turtles, but they got built up so much during the housing boom that a lot of habitat was lost and the roads through such area started seeing a lot more traffic.

There's got to be some way of running this that minimizes the loopholes and maximizes the benefit to the turtles, while still letting people enjoy the animals they've kept since childhood. I was thinking something along the lines of only allowing people to purchase PIT-tagged CB neonates of such species. The PIT tags should keep folks from conveniently switching identities on their animals, and neonates from most of these species (EBT/spotted/wood) are so rarely encountered in the wild they would be much more like to be CB. No solution will be foolproof. But looking at drivers licenses--the significant dangers to life and property posed by drunk drivers and the difficulty in policing the entire driving populace hasn't led to everyone's ability to own or drive a car being revoked, has it?

I don't fault the wildlife officers. They are doing an important and often thankless job. The problem lies in the laws they must enforce--laws that were made by the same greedy politicians who flip-flop on ecological issues when their cronies stand to benefit from a change of stance.

Oooo I know all about the building. I frame houses for a living.Seen quite a few EBTs on Cape Cod the last cpl yrs, compared to seeing maybe 1 in 10yrs in the past.There getting pushed out by the 10,000 sq ft McMansions being built in prime habitat.You'ld think the Enviromentalist would step in but at upwards of 4 million $$$ for a house lot,and big $$ in new property taxes blinds them to everything.I like the PIT tag idea, but how do you check to know for sure the turtles you buy actually have 1.Or how do they check all the breeders to see that there doing it.Costs would go way up,probally push the breeders into more of a black market, or out of business.Awareness needs to be raised to change anything I think.How to do that is anyones guess.

I don't know of a satisfactory solution. I see your point, but the issue is very different from a matter of driver's licenses. There is no risk of PEOPLE being extirpated due to deaths on the road (drunken or any other kind). There is, however, a very real risk of whole populations and whole species being extirpated from areas. As many of us are well aware, this is happening at this very moment. Just because individual turtles may hang on for years and decades in areas, doesn't make them any less extirpated on a functional population level. Whole species are being hunted and collected into extinction in the wild... and this is NOT being dramatic. So placing moratoriums on possession could ultimately be the only way to police (or attempt to do so) these people who collect and sell with no regard for the species' future in the wild.

That said, I'm not sure you could effectively or safely equip neonate turtles with PIT tags. I'm no expert on them, but I'm not sure you can get them small enough yet. Here in Ohio, turtles are required to get PIT tags, but not until they are 4 inches in carapace length. And for that matter, that wouldn't solve the problem with folks collecting wild gravid-females, harvesting their eggs, and selling the hatchlings. Maybe there is a way around this, but I think that possibility shrinks every time poachers find a new angle to make money off wild turtles. They give the whole "industry" a bad name.

...I think this puts my at 4 cents now? sorry.

"That said, I'm not sure you could effectively or safely equip neonate turtles with PIT tags."

If my memory serves me correctly, "Project Bog Turtle" has had some success pit tagging baby bog turtles in NC, SC, GA, and TN. For the life of me, I don't know how they could do it. Amazing.

yeah, I think some studies have tagged Ambystomatid salamanders as well. I suppose it can be done. I agree though, I don't know how they do it!

I believe that the turtles have to be 50mm SCL before they can be PIT tagged.

Katrina

Saying that the government has the best interest of these turtles in mind is difficult for me to understand. It it wasn't for captive breeding programs, species like the galopagos tortoise, american alligator, and many others would probably be extinct by now. To not allow captive breeding programs through a permit process is ridiculous and to interfere with interstate commerce is illegal. The only way people get baby box,spotted, and wood turtles is through captive breeding programs. This is about government control and shifting responsibility for species decline to some bogus black market because, so far, state sponsored habitat preservation programs are not working. This is about taking over your rights to own and breed reptiles in the united states. I would like to believe that an organization like PIJAC would be all over this regulatory issue.

It's illegal now to take anything native into or out of PA, doesn't matter if it's CB or WC or where it came from. Unless you had your woods, spotteds, or EBTs before 2007, they're now illegal to possess.

For those that had eastern box, woods, or spotteds in PA BEFORE 2007 - LIMIT OF TWO - you can get a grandfather permit to keep them, but no breeding. If you can't keep your two woods, two spotteds, etc., you can give them to someone else with a transfer of the permit.

MD, OH, and NJ allow the keeping and breeding of native turtles with a permit system (the breeding part is fairly new in MD, due to a health code regulation that was over-ridden by legislation created by hobbyists), and for the most part, require that the turtle is captive bred. In MD, a $25 annual permit allows you to keep all the native turtles you want (excluding endangered or threatened state species), provided you can prove they didn't come from the wild in MD, you keep detailed records of what happened to those turtles (when hatched, traded, acquired, sold, died, etc.), and you allow the inspection of any location you keep your turtles.

Here are the regs taken from: http://www.fish.state.pa.us/fishpub/summary/repamp.html

The following regulations apply to reptiles and amphibians.
They DO NOT apply to endangered and threatened species.
[Because there are other regs for eangered and threatened species - the northern redbelly is considered state threatened or endangered and cannot be possessed.]

Native species not listed on this page:
[This is the eastern and midland painted, smooth and spiny softshell, stinkpot, and eastern mud.]
No closed season
Daily Limit: 1
Possession Limit: 1

The following reptile and amphibian species have NO OPEN SEASON.
The DAILY LIMIT is 0 (zero) and POSSESSION LIMIT is 0 (zero).

TURTLES
Blanding’s Turtle
Eastern Box Turtle
Spotted Turtle
Wood Turtle

A permit is required to hunt, take, catch, or kill common snapping turtles for the purpose of sale, barter, or trade.

ALL Reptiles and Amphibians:
A fishing license is required to catch or take reptiles and amphibians from the waters of the Commonwealth. A fishing license is not required for reptiles and amphibians on land.

Unless otherwise indicated, reptiles and amphibians may only be taken by hand, hook, snake tongs, turtle hooks, traps, and nets less than four feet square or four feet in diameter.

It is unlawful to take, catch, or kill a reptile or amphibian through the use of firearms, chemicals, explosives, winches, jacks, or other devices.

It is unlawful to damage or disrupt the nest or eggs of a reptile or to gather, take or possess the eggs of any reptile in the natural environment of this Commonwealth.

Except for snapping turtles taken by commercial permit, reptiles and amphibians, whether dead or alive, in whole or parts, including eggs or any life stage taken from within the Commonwealth may not be sold or offered for sale.

Taking, catching, and possessing amphibians and reptiles in Department of Conservation and Natural Resources natural areas designated by posters is prohibited.

Katrina