Reptile & Amphibian Forums

This is good info, from way back in 2001. These books provide good information on treating and dosing reptiles.
I believe they can be found on kingsnake classified as well.
Anyway, here is the link to the old post.

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Phrynosoma.Com

I would take that with a grain of salt.

Ivermectin is contra-indicated by the manufacturer ( Merck ) for use in herps. Ivermectin is a highly toxic and may cross the blood-brain barrier in many herp species. It is immediately fatal in many species by paralysis and respiratory failure, or can result in long term neurological damage or blindness.

I will say again, as I have said in the past numerous times - stay away from Ivermectin in your herps. Fenbendazole is much safer and has a broader effective range anyway.

I have never used Ivermectin and never will.

>>This is good info, from way back in 2001. These books provide good information on treating and dosing reptiles.
>>I believe they can be found on kingsnake classified as well.
>>Anyway, here is the link to the old post.
>>
>>
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>> Phrynosoma.Com

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www.groups.yahoo.com/group/HornedLizards
www.youtube.com/user/PhrynosomaTexas
Wichita Falls Reptile Rescue
Harvester Ants

Hey Mike, I wasn't calling out the use of Ivermectin specifically, but just pointing to the books. I haven't read them completely through yet, but they are just loaded with useful information regarding parasites, dosing, etc...
Thanks for clarifying your point though. If it's an issue it should be duly noted.
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Phrynosoma.Com

I know. The first book mentioned is a good one and I have seen a lot of good info by that veterinarian. I'm just pointing out for people to use caution with some of these things that older posts, or even some books, discuss.

Montanucci called for aminoglycoside antibiotics in his maintenance and propagation, but some of that info is outdated now, or is far too dangerous for the average person to be messing with. I've centered on taking about fenbendazole ( panacur ) to the masses, because it is much safer and if the average person is going to try to self treat their herps at all, it should be with fenbendazole for sure.

Just the fact that the common route for administration of Ivermectin for internal parasite is intra-muscular injection ( IM ), should be enough clue for people to stay away from it. Only thing I think I would EVER recommend it's use for is suspected or confirmed lung worm or heart worm cases where 2 or 3 treatments with fenbendazole did not work, OR for very dilute topical application in the case of resistant snake mites or something.

I still would recommend dilute fenbendazole, or mineral oil rub or a lot of other things first, before I even considered ivermectin. It's just too damn dangerous. I think anything you read in one of those books should be bounced off of someone before trying. Herp medicine is still a pretty undiscovered country, and things change all the time about what is a safe recommendation in exotic medicine. That is why I subscribe to online exotic veterinary journals. What veterinarians were doing 5 or 10 years ago, may now be known as a very very bad thing to do. This is true especially in the case of veterinarians who are still using old science to treat turtles and tortoises with vitamin A injections, or vets who are using Baytril injection on juveniles, when it is clearly contra-indicated as causing joint tissue damage to juvenile animals.

>>Hey Mike, I wasn't calling out the use of Ivermectin specifically, but just pointing to the books. I haven't read them completely through yet, but they are just loaded with useful information regarding parasites, dosing, etc...
>>Thanks for clarifying your point though. If it's an issue it should be duly noted.
>>-----
>> Phrynosoma.Com

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www.groups.yahoo.com/group/HornedLizards
www.youtube.com/user/PhrynosomaTexas
Wichita Falls Reptile Rescue
Harvester Ants

Hey Mike,
Do you do anything to diagnose bacterial/viral infections (internal)? How do you know if you have a worm issue vs a bacterial infection?
Do you have a vet diagnose all issues and just do your prevention routine otherwise?
I had three P. taurus last year all of which came down with a lung issue. Baytril injections pulled one of them out of it twice, but eventually they all succumbed. Ever had a respiratory issue?

I did some poking around out of curiosity at requirements for becoming a vet. I was a bit shocked and surprised that it amounts to roughly 8 years of some serious schooling. I had no idea. My hats off to those who travel that road.
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Phrynosoma.Com

8 years is not necessary to obtain a DVM degree in all places. Most veterinary colleges are 4 year schools accredited by the American Veterinary Medical Assoc. It depends on the entrance requirements for the school as to whether previous college credits or a degree is required.

Most vets tend to be very generalized. They don't learn very much about exotic medicine in veterinary school. These fields are left to the vet to specialize in and keep up with continuing education and seminars. Many will see exotics in their offices, but that does not mean they are specialized or have completed any course work specifically for herps or any other exotic. This is not regulated like people medicine, or a lawyer. They can see any animal in their clinic they want, whether they are qualified to treat it or not. Often, this is the case. I run into vets all the time that do not know what the hell they are doing with herps.

Herps are not what most vets butter their bread on. Domestic pets are. Most vets who see herps, do it simply to fill the books in between seeing dogs and cats. In fact, many clinics only make appointments to see herps on certain days of the week. As I said before, herp medicine and how certain things affect herps, can be much different than for mammals. Most of the error comes in when the vet extrapolates from mammal treatments, which can often be a big mistake.

99% of veterinary medicine is the diagnostic, and knowing what to look for, and recognizing what you are looking at. Diagnostics for certain illnesses have certain visible symptoms. Distended bowels, labored breathing, mouth agape breathing, elevated posture, runny, foul smelling, or off colored feces, lack of feces, lack of urates, or off colored urates, how they hold themselves, whether they burrow, are responsive to stimuli, open their eyes, chase their food. All these things tell me something and point me in certain logical directions. It's a simple trouble shooting elimination process many times. Bacterial infections do certain things. Protozoan parasites do certain things and may resemble bacterial infections. Impactions, respiratory infections, imbalanced gut flora...all these things have certain diagnostic indicators.

When I have a suspicion of either protozoan parasite, or bacterial infection, which does not respond to my broad spectrum treatments, I may collect fecal samples for microscope exam, or ask they be sent off for cultures to ID what pathogen is present, so that I can target the pathogen or parasite with the most effective drug. Most of the time when nematodes have become a problem, they become visible through my own visual exam. I also treat as prophylaxis for nematodes at certain times of the year.

I do deal with RI issues too sometimes. I covered this with Lou a while back and went into detail. Baytril success rates in RI issues I have found to be not very effective when given orally or by injection. There is almost always a recurrence after an initial recovery. I have told many people to watch for this, and they will tell me their lizard is getting better. I warn them that it will probably come back in a couple of weeks, and it almost always does. Many times the lizard dies the second time around. In my opinion, combination dosing is necessary unless you have a culture and know exactly what you are targeting. Baytril resistance is very high due to it's overuse for many years, and the way it is prescribed willy nilly for any sniffle. Herps also must be dosed for extended periods to have real effect. Due to the lack of effectiveness of oral or injectable Baytril in treating RI, I have started to administer by dilute nebulization therapy, along with combination dosing by oral or injection route. Nebulization gets the medicine right in the lungs where it is needed. I also use small concentrations of Albuterol sometimes to clear the airway, and recently have begun experimenting with caffeine as a respiratory stimulant for sick herps in respiratory distress. It helps to clear their lung secretions as well.

Pro-biotic treatment is very important to get your animal on when it is undergoing antibiotic treatment. Too many vets don't cover this need or see it's importance in herps, and too many keepers aren't even aware of the issue. Antibiotics usually kill the good bacteria too. If that happens to your lizard's gut flora, his digestion and immune system will not work. So, you could cure one thing, then kill your HL when his gut flora is decimated and digestion shuts down. Shoving all the ants and crickets in the world down his throat, won't help.

Most fatal illnesses that you will see, may appear to be respiratory related. But, often that is because respiratory distress and respiratory failure are the end stages of many illnesses. Their kidneys could have failed a couple of days before. They could be suffering acidosis or other metabolic disorder, or exposure to a toxin, or any number of things. So, by the time you see this respiratory symptom, there could be significant organ damage or infection elsewhere in the body already. Most often it is the effects on the respiratory system that get noticed, because they are most conspicuous symptoms to spot for the layperson.
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www.groups.yahoo.com/group/HornedLizards
www.youtube.com/user/PhrynosomaTexas
Wichita Falls Reptile Rescue
Harvester Ants

Nice write-up Mike. I realize most vets don't specialize in Herps, and many don't know what they are doing. It leaves us with quite a dilemma. Still, I would tend to get an opinion, and make a strong effort to find one locally that are recommended by herpers in your area. (Not you specifically, as I know you have those relations).

Regarding beneficial gut flora, how do you know what specific gut flora is relevant for HLs, and what role does it play in digestion? What you say seems to imply you know this. I have shied away from treating because I have always felt it was important not to disturb this balance, or at least keep it to a minimum.

Your nebulizer idea is pretty interesting. You use some kind of tent or something? In general baytril seems to be fairly harsh on the patient. Have you tried other antibiotics?
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Phrynosoma.Com

I agree that the average person is better off with a vet most times than not, but I also stress checking into their specific experience with herps, successes, and double checking info that they get from vets against knowledgeable herp keepers. There are plenty of websites out there that discuss common misconceptions and dangerous treatments administered by veterinarians.

For example, Randy's baby hernandesi of about 2 grams. Not sure if he talked to you about that, but his vet was urging force feeding of whole prey, and antibiotics. I flatly told him this vet was going to kill his HL, and that he probably was suffering from metabolic acidosis instead, from hibernating too long, or at too warm a temp, and now his fat reserves were depleted. This likely resulted in catabolism of muscle tissue to use protein as a fuel, a deficiency of fat soluble vitamins, and acidosis of the blood which can cause kidney failure. I told him to go with liquid Repta-Aid formula instead, amino acid based electrolyte, Bene-Bac, and absolutely DO NOT force feed prey. His little one recovered, and last I heard had about quadrupled his weight I think. Saving a 2 gram HL is not an easy thing to do, and if the veterinarians recommendations had all been followed, "John" would be dead today. She did not recognize what was happening to him.

Melissa Kaplan's site has a veterinary recommendation page.

In my opinion, about the best second opinion veterinary information you can get is usually from keepers of large tortoises. There are so many issues with Chelonians, and experienced keepers and breeders of very long lived and large tortoises have usually been through a lot of these issues, and are familiar with the need to second guess veterinarians, and on what subjects.

The gut flora is directly responsible for digestion. It is the bacteria in the system that cause the breakdown of the foods, and derive the nutrients which are released and shared with the host animal. They are also responsible for immune function, by preventing the overgrowth of pathogenic bacteria. That is about as simple as I can state it.

While I do not know every identified commensal flora in HLs, nor even that they have all been identified, we do know that certain bacteria are present in birds and reptiles, such as Lactobacillus sp. These probiotics add several commensal lactic acid producing bacteria, which are foundations of a good flora balance. There is no harm of using them that I have ever seen, or witnessed through my own use. Many many herp keepers, and veterinarians, recommend them. They can in fact help keep pathogenic bacteria from multiplying out of control. In a healthy herp, you don't have to use it, but if you are using antibiotics, I HIGHLY recommend the use of these probiotics to keep the engine of digestion and immunity from flaming out.

For the nebulizer treatment, I use a large ziplock bag to which the nebulizer tubes are taped inside to create a positive pressure chamber.

It is not so much that Baytril is hard on the patient, it actually is much easier on the kidneys than many other antibiotics. The problem with Baytril is mainly the damaging effects on joint tissue, especially on juveniles, if injected in undilute form. I shy away from injection period if possible. The other is the resistance to it in the pathogen world, because it is a knee jerk prescription. But, there are many other antibiotics out there, such as aminoglycosides and sulfonamides, which can be much more harmful to the herp. Special care must be taken with them as well, and the damage can be fatal very quickly. Old tetracycline is also highly nephrotoxic and should be thrown away, not reused.

Where possible however, I try to use cephalosporin class, preferably third or fourth generation, which have much fewer side effects and are pretty effective in reptiles. ( ceftazidime, cefpodoxime ) Even first or second gen are useful and may be tried if available, before going with another class of antibiotic.
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www.groups.yahoo.com/group/HornedLizards
www.youtube.com/user/PhrynosomaTexas
Wichita Falls Reptile Rescue
Harvester Ants

Thanks Mike,
Man, you should pursue that Vet credential!
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Phrynosoma.Com