Reptile & Amphibian Forums

ok i bought my frill before christmas from california and he was shipped over night to texas. i got him at 9am friday and i fed him. he ate 4 crickets and a super worm. then i inspected him for mites. he had them.he was treated for parasites prior. so i treated him for mites. 10pm saturday night i noticed he threw up what he ate friday mornring.all weekend he was either sleeping in his water or flat on his floor. monday i brang him to vet. he gave me baytril to make sure he didnt have infection from mites. he told me that the mite treatment could make him sick and slow if it touched his vent or lips. i infact did treat his vent for mites. i coverd his tank (55 long)with a towel and kept his night temps 85. his humidity with a humidifier at 65. and yes he has a uvb 10 and 2 basking spots.

after a few days of baytril i stopped. i started him on flukers emergency care supliment and fed him daily acording to instruction. he eventualy started eating on his own. one super worm a day then 2 then 3. then i started hand feeding him crickets. he seemed to be doing great. after a month. 4 days ago. i put him into a large 4 foot by 5 foot vivi. lots of room to climb and explore. though the front is coverd by a towel i think the move freaked him out. he just stays in one area all day. refusingg food. i had to start him up again on flukers emergency supliment.

he is very fearfull and hates me!!! is this normal frill behavior? i see every one on here has happy frills. do i just need to build up trust and continue feeding him supliment untill he will eat on his own again? how slow should i move with the frill.i have bearded dragons and once had water dragons and they all were fairly easy to handle . this frill is really ultra sensitive to even seeing people..

vivi temps are 85-90 basking spots of 100 and night temps of 72. i removed one light to bringn down temps in vivi. 90 may be to hot. but humidity is about 60.

the frill is about 10 inches long . his temps are accurate and his humidity is aswell.
his poop looks normal. not runny .

i just like to add that i did read alot of the threads on this page and i believe its just normal stuff. but input is always good.

Hi,

He may take sometime to adjust to his new home. Its new, its different. I would say it will take some for him to warm up to you. Hang in there. Frilling is a normal and natural behavior. Keep trying to see if you can get him to eat on his own. My frill only eats moving prey. Seeing a bunch of crickets moving, usually kicks in his hunting eating instinct.

best wishes,

Anna

thanks! last time he stopped eating it took him 4 days on flukers emergency care untill he snapped out of it. today is day 4. we'll see what happens.

well i soaked him in a large foam box today. 20 parts water to 1 part gatorade. he drank for 15 min straight almost. i also let him sip up flukers emergency care. most went into water but he was drinking it up on his own.
in his vivi i put a metal bowl of roaches and one super worm to get his attention.

today he seemed extreamly weak and his eyes were closed almost the whole time of soaking he is in his vivi and went to his favorite spot. i also changed his water bowl to a more familiar one. as well as added a humidifier into his vivi.
hopefully these things will help him recover from his stressfull move into a larger vivi.

also he probably got dehydrated from not realizing where his water bowl was. i hope the next few days he improves. i am very worried for him.

My frillies will never drink from a water bowl. Avoiding stagnant water in the wild is a good thing, but in captivity it's a pain. They will use a water bowl for a toilet. This is sometimes handy when you want to take them out and let them run around with less fear of them making a mess.

I will mist my frillies by spraying them, gently but directly, with warm (95F-100F) water. This will trigger a licking reflex in some of them. I'll try to dribble a slow stream from the sprayer until they take their fill. For some, I'll use a small plastic bottle, filled with warm water. I'll drip this onto their snout till they start to drink.

Food with a high water content is useful. Hornworms and silkworms are a good source of water for frillies that are hard to get to drink. One of my adult females is very skittish and won't move or do anything while she sees a human. She gets a daily hornworm, which she won't eat until I cover her cage and go away. Some females are like that.

Your large cage looks nice, but based on my experience, is probably too cold to prevent your frillie from going into winter shutdown.

Regurgitation or no interest in food sounds all too familiar. When starting out with my first frillies I didn't provide enough heat, light and humidity. It was really hard to find out what exact environment they needed because of the scarce and sometimes incorrect info out there. The owner of the shop where I purchased them told me to make their cage like a hot, muggy, New York summer day. That was the trick, and they took off.

I've attached a photo of a setup that I've settled on when a small cage will do. It's a 24H x 24W x 18D Exo-Terra glass terrarium, and is good for an adult female or a sub-adult male. When you go to a larger cage, you'll need to scale up the heat and light. A bigger cage is nice, but if it's too cold, the animal won't thrive.

Under the glass bottom is Exo-Terra Heatwave Desert Large (25W), on 24x7. On top of the glass bottom I have a layer of cage carpet and a terry cloth towel. This makes clean up easier, and when misted, the carpet/towel over the hot bottom adds a sauna effect.

The back and sides have a layer of white packing foam taped on the outside to help insulate the cage.

On top of the cage, at the back, I have an Exo-Terra CF Hood with 3X Exo-Terra Desert 10.0 UV bulbs, on from 8AM to 10PM. On top in front I have a 60W flood light, on 8AM to 10PM, and a 60W heat bulb, on from 10PM to 8AM. Note how I have closed up all of the top to keep heat in.

This setup has 85W heat at night and 163W heat and light during the day. When they outgrow this cage, they go into a custom 48H x 36W x 18D cage with more that twice the heat and light wattage. Room temps are 68F-75F in the winter and 75F-85F in the summer, and the cages are typically 20F hotter inside than room temp.

Provide vertical surfaces to climb.

Mist heavily 1 or 2 days, then let it dry out for a day or two dry so that it doesn't stay swampy and breed bacteria and mold.

Cover at night and some of the day to help the frillie if it's acting scared.

Mike

thank you so much for all the detailed information i really apriciate it.
my vivi temps are 80 at the bottom and 85 at the top. i have an actual ultrasonic room humidifier that keeps 65-70 humidity. every time i open the vivi it makes me warm because of all the warmth pooring out. i think yesterdays vomit was from stress because my temps, though the vivi is large, are up there. night temps were 75 last night. i fear leaving a red bulb on because if i do, ambient temps go up past 90 and he clings to the outside screen as it is. i think he clings to the screen in the back because its darker up there but maybe its to cool off.

yesterday he did eat but vomited and was so stressed he blew up his air bladder. today he ate one super worm and i kind of lost ballence reaching into his vivi and scared him so he didnt eat more then one. but i offerd it and must have stressed him out because he started swallowing air and filling his air bladder again. so odd. but i did see it happen.

if your female is so skittish she wont eat infront of you. how do you manage her? that would be my biggest fear if he started doing this....

The temps in my cages are about 85 at the bottom and 95-100 at the top. They will thermoregulate by moving up and down. If they get too hot you will see them gaping to cool off. Gaping for hours on end, is too hot. Never gaping is too cold. You want to be between the two extremes. The vomiting is a sign of being too cold. Your animal is hungry enough to eat, but he isn't warm enough to digest the food, so he regurgitates it rather than having it rot in his gut. It's a survival mechanism. reptiles digestion, metabolism and immune system all depend on heat.If a reptile's body temp is 10 or so degrees to low, is will be stressed and suffer a slow decline.

As far as humidity goes, too much will cause respiratory problems while too little will cause loss of appetite and shedding problems. Since there is a big temperature gradient tin the cage, and RH depends on temp, it's a little hard to measure. I have my RH probe near the temp probe, and I try to put them at the approximate height where the animals hang out. Today is a dry day for the frillies, and I'm reading 92' and 22% RH in one of my larger cages. Yesterday was a wet day. Before misting, they were at 90' and 18%. After misting, they were at 84' and 100% RH. During the day, they warmed up and dried off to 93' and 65% by the time their lights went out. Even though I mist with warm water, the evaporation really cools off the cage.

Is your humidifier in the cage, or in your room?

I personally don't like screen cages. Frillies have a tendency to rub their noses on the cage sides, and screens are like a cheese grater. I've seen several frillies that have ripped up their noses that way. The other problem is that unless your room is hot and humid like the animal wants, you'll never be able to make the cage hot and humid enough for them. There is a lot of literature that says frillies need a lot of ventilation. Where I live (northern CA), I just haven't been able to get the heat and humidity without almost completely closing the cage up. Take a look at the photo. Air comes in through the vents below the glass doors and goes out through about 2 square inches of vents in the top of the lights. That's it.

I have four large cages, and four Exo-Terra cages set up exactly like the photo. If an animal isn't happy, eating like it should or just isn't thriving, they go in the Exo-terra setup. It's somewhat cramped, but a problem child will always perk up in there. Not so with the bigger cages since they herder to keep hot and humid.

When in doubt, add more heat and moisture.

Once your frillie perks up and starts climbing and jumping around, I'd really worry about having lights in the cage. you don't want to find him burned from hanging out on top of a light. Some reptiles don't have the ability to properly feel heat. That's why heat rocks are a problem. I don't know if a frillie will feel pain when it sits on a hot light enclosure, but why chance it?

I have 5 females and each one is different. On a scale of 1 (shy) to 5 (unafraid), I have a 1, 2, 3, 4 and 5 and I'll refer to them as such.

1 and 2 have their own Exo-Terra cage, and I have curtains over the front for part of the day, and all night. They will be active, running around and basking with their head up, but when they see a human, they freeze, slowly put their hear down or run into a hide spot. This behavior seems to begin once they are a year old. 1 is a frightened nervous basket case, and 2 is ok as long as you don't make any sudden moves or take her out of her cage. This is a main reason why males make better pets. To feed them, I put a hornworm on the cork above them, close and cover the cage and go away. No sudden moves to scare them and they will eat when I'm out of sight.

3,4 and 5 and a juvie male are all in a large cage. All are human socialized, and will eat from our hands. 3 is calm around humans, but spends all of her time in one small spot tucked behind a cork branch. That's the reason she earns a 3. She will eat from your hand, but won't go searching for food elsewhere in the cage. 4 is a little skittish around humans, but is the dominant female in the cage, is very active and will climb and jump a lot. She will eat from your hand, and search out food in the cage. 5 is just mellow, and will never frill. She is social around humans, will sit on your shoulder for up to 20 minutes, will eat from your hand and a bowl in the cage. Her personality is almost like a male.

Up to about a year, males and females look and act about the same. Yours doesn't appear old enough to have the shy female behavior if in fact he's a she. I'd guess that your frillie's problems are just related to husbandry.

Hope that answers some of your questions.

Mike

mike!
thank you SOOOOOOOOOO much for the details. it seems other forums lack it. i realy like that you take the time to reply with full details.

i found a way to relocate the frill into a 20 gal long with out stressing him out to much. i put the 20 gal long inside the vivi. volla. his surrounding is the same! just in a smaller tank! cant see out either. i put a towel on the front!

he imidiatly started basking from one side to the next. head up and purky after about 5 min. i did see him poop. it was extreamly runny and not solid at all. this is the first time i've seen his poop like this. but concidering he drank so much water i was not suprized. also today was a very stressfull day for him. i even fed him flukers emergency care since he was refusing to eat or drink with acception of one super.

so you would like to see my temps higher then 85 ? you got it. i'm waiting for the lamps to do their magic before i get my reading on the new set up. i have a house light bulb on one side and a spot basking uva bulb on the other with a uvb10 in the middle.
i also set the timer to 12 hours. one of my bearded dragons just wants to go to sleep already. doesnt know why the lights are still on but every one else is fine. heh

the room humidifier is external to the 20 gal long but internal to the vivi. it was in the vivi for the last few days. and when he was in the 55 gal long it was next to it with the mist/cloud falling down into the tank with a directional peice of foil.

i am concerned with RI so i dont like to see my humidity stay above 75%. is this correct?
typicaly since i live in san antonio tx i never see my humidity in any tank,lower then 45%

Great news. Before we were using the Exo-Terra setup, we had frillies #1 and 4 (see my previous post) in 20L tanks.

The first photo shows them hanging out in the big cage before #1 got too skittish and had to be put in an Exo-Terra by her self. They are 13 months in this photo.

The last two photos show what was my first successful setup using a 20L:

20L tank, left side has Exo-Terra 16W Desert UTH on 24H. Cage carpet on bottom. White foam is taped on the back and sides. On top are, left to right, 60 W ceramic heat emitter, 60W incandescent, both on 14H during day, and on the right is a 60W heat emitter on at night. There is a Zoo-Med 10.0 UVB tube in back. Note how top is sealed up to keep heat and moisture in.

Back then, these were the only cages in the room, and we kept the thermostat at 63' during the winter, hence the high wattage. Now a days, there are more cages in this room and the room is quite warm all year round.

Two female frillies, #1 on the left and #4 on the right, same age, in identical cages. It was common to see them basking, running around and just acting exactly the same. Kind of like a synchronized swimming team only they couldn't see each other, just acting on instinct. They were about 6 months old at this point.

The humidifier in your setup might not be as much of a help as you'd think. The same water content that yields 70% RH at 70' is only 31% RH at 95'. It would be helpful to put a humidity gage near where your frillie hangs out and determine an accurate RH.

I have read about RI problems due to high humidity but that is one problem that has not occurred with any of my frillies. For a while, I was misting the cages every day, and the humidity was staying around 60-80% where they hang out. The cork started growing moss and the cages just started to smell musty. Thinking that this wasn't a healthy environment I started doing the wet/dry cycle. When they are shedding I'll make sure they get extra misting.

A vertically oriented cage is desirable, but a warm cage is mandatory. Once your frillie is doing well in the 20L, then you can start to make small changes to his environment. Spend a little time researching the weather in New Guinea and you'll see what I'm talking about.

Mike

again thank you VERY MUCH. i do have a humidity guage in the tank at all time. you say the ultrasonic humidifier isnt doing the same job as what spraying would do though. i would just like to verify this. i will still spray his 20l. he has newspaper as substraight becaues thats the only thing i had atm. goingn to walmart to pick up a towel tomarrow most likely.
i can not afford a night/day timer just yet. i'd love one. and i definantly cant aford the ceramic heating element JUST yet. i'll do one then the other you should see how many serge protectors i have. its probably not safe!
i will follow your advice as closely as i can and i wont worry about to much humidity causing RI.
i am working out how to get one of my red heat lamps out and on him. you recomend this if i dont have a ceramic heating element? house feels chilly but thermostate only says 75...... i'm cold though....

thanx again mike. i am looking forward to your reply.

I used to use the ceramic heat emitters, but I have found them to be less efficient than other heat sources because about half their heat goes in the wrong direction.

I like the T-Rex 60W Heat Safe Emitter. Pro: very efficient and directional, very little light, least likely to burn animals that contact it. Con: high humidity will make it burn out sooner unless you run it 24H, expensive.

Another option is one of the reflector heat lamps: Zoo-Med Nocturnal Infrared Heat Lamp, Exo-Terra Heat-Glo Nocturnal infrared or Zilla Night Black Heatspot. These come in a 50 to 150W. I've used them all, and they last longer than the T-Rex heat emitter in humid environments. The Zoo-Med and Exo-Terra are dark red, but quite a bit brighter than the Zilla which is a very dark blue. Some cages are in our bedroom, so we like the blue Zilla better, though the animals don't seem to mind the red bulbs. The Zoo-Med is best IMHO, unless the light bothers you at night.

On the bottom of the cage, we use the Zilla Green Terrarium Liner. The 30 Gal size can be cut to make a liner for a 20L. We then put terry cloth towels on top, and scatter a bunch of rocks, fake plants, cage furniture and bowls around to hold the liner and towel down. If you have a UTH, you need to make sure your frillie doesn't crawl under the liner/towel and lay on the glass above the UTH. It will get burned if that happens. When they poop, we'll change the towel, but usually leave the liner, only changing it when it gets bad. You can wash the liners by hosing them off, disinfecting with bleach, hosing them off again and hanging them up to dry in the sun. They don't survive the washer very well. Get two or more liners and a bunch of towels so you have something clean at all times.

yes the towel method is what i am using with my bearded dragons. sandy colord towels 1.50$ at walmart. pretty darn thick too. covers more then a 50 gal breader. the exotera red bulb, 100 wat is what i have above him right now. in a large dome. he doesnt seem to be botherd by the light and has not moved from his sleeping spot since i put it above him. his temps in the center of his tank is 80 below the red light i assume would be more but he isnt directly under it, his humidity is reading 80% i believe the tank inside vivi is doing a GREAT job as there is air all around him that can stay warm cuz the front plexi is closed.
air is the best insolation. (heard that on discovery channel!)

tomarrow i hope i dont scare him while i am trying to feed him. do you think, if he doesnt eat solid food, should i give him the flukers emergency care (with b12) to hydrate him and give him energy? or should i give him a day off to cool down.
taking the lights off the top then opening the top screen may scare him enough to not eat too. oh bother.

The 100W red bulb sounds about right. I just used an IR thermometer to measure the skin (and thus approximate body) temp on a few of my frillies. Their temps ranged from 85-94F. The 85 reading is a little low for my taste, but it's one of the shy females (#3) and she would rather hide than bask in the warmth. I need to direct more heat on her hiding spot. Your 80' reading sounds a little low if it's under the heat light. You would like the basking spot to be in the 95-105 range. If you provide a warm spot like this at one end of the tank, he can warm up there and then find just the right temp to hang out at. If you provide a proper heat gradient, there won't be any danger of cooking your little guy. If he's too hot he'll move to a colder spot. If you don't provide enough heat, he will suffer a variety of problems: poor growth, infections, not eating, listlessness regurgitation and eventually death.

An IR thermometer is one of the best investments you can make in keeping your frillie happy because it reads the animals temperature, which is really all that matters.

Lights on top if the cage are a problem when feeding, misting and watering. Been there, done that. When we had the 20L setups, I attached all the lights to the screen top. The florescent lamp was taped using packaging tape, and I drilled holes in the dome lights, at the rim, and used twist ties to secure them to the screen. This way I could carefully tilt up and slide back the top. Maybe you could suspend your lights so that you can slide the cover up for feeding.

As far as force feeding or flukers emergency care, I'll let you make your own decision. When I get a new lizard, I expect it will take a week or so before it feels safe and comfortable in it's new home, and that's puting it into a proven cage setup.

Mike

now that the tank has been set up a day the temps and humidity leveld out to 95-105 with a cool area of 90. the lamps are able to be suspended inside vivi so i can take off the lid. he didnt get to scared today and he ate one super worm. he has been on his vertical log under a 60w house light bulb that he can get RIGHT under. the 75w uva basking bulb would make this area to hot for him if he can get THAT close so thats on the other side of the tank about 3 inches suspended from above
he hasnt moved from this basking area and i have not seen him "Gape" would this mean that even 100 is STILL to cold?

you can see him near the red light looking straight up at the camera. on the top of his cork log.