Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Over the many years I've been keeping venomous snakes this single topic which causes the most controversy is that of “venomoiding”. Venomoiding is the process in which the venom glands and ducts are surgically removed, rendering the snake incapable of envenomating. Not a particularly complex bit of surgery but care must be taken to preserve local nerves and blood supply. Furthermore, the veterinary surgeon must ensure that all remains of the ducts and venom gland are removed or else the venom apparatus could regenerate. Elapids who were previously subjected to this procedure have been demonstrated to have re-grown venom glands and ducts when great care has not been taken.

In the past the general arguments were inhumane, unnecessary, cruel, and causes digestive problem. The only one of those that remains questionable is regarding the snake’s digestive process without the aide of its digestive enzyme within the venom itself. No one that I know of has taken the time to set up the proper experiment to prove or disprove this theorem.

However, an interesting account of a fatal envenomation of a venomoid black mamba (Dendroaspis polylepis) by another Black Mamba housed in the same enclosure caused me to look closer. The fatal bite was inflicted during feeding by another large cage mate, just behind the head of the venomoid snake. It took three or four days for the male snake die however it did indeed happen. A necropsy was performed on the dead male venomoid. Severe necrosis was found from the bite site extending approximately 15 inches towards the tail. It's seems in this case the venomoid still maintained some immunity to the lethal fractions of the Mamba venom but had no protection against the digestive or proteolytic fractions.

This finding is quite interesting on many levels. It would seem on the surface that the venom gland itself provides protection against the actions of the venom against the host snake. Yeah, no duh! Once the venom glands and ducts are removed it would seem the snake loses immunity to venom produced by others of the same species. It would also be interesting to discover how long this process may take and just what community is lost and retained. Can a vaccine for human or domesticated animal being developed knowing this. I can think of a few experiments that could shed further light on these questions, unfortunately I do not have the time or the laboratory to it up.

Cheers!

Al
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Truth is generally the best vindication against slander.
Abraham Lincoln.

Sorry, but this makes no sense to me. I do believe that the immunities are caused by certain genes creating proteins or other organic structures which out compete the venom for its binding site (ie, sugar structures near the acetylcholine binding site on muscle receptors which inhibit the binding of venom). A lack of venom should not change this at all.

Has it been show that mambas are immune to their own venom? While I know some snakes are, I don't think they all are, and maybe not all have been studied either. It would be very interesting to me to hear a mechanism on how lack of venom leads to lack of immunity at the molecular level, very interesting if this turns out to be the case.
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Nick Puder
www.rnpreptiles.com

I hit this forum on accident and decided to read this. I agree it does not make sense.

I would send a message to Zoltan Takacs, as he would be the leading authority on who snakes are immune to their venoms. Having listened to his lectures and spent a little time with Zoltan, my understanding is the snakes do not have a "resistance" which would be variable dependant on external factors (including presence of their own venom glands), but rather it is a true immunity like the above poster mentioned with things like the sugar molecule prohibiting binding, as they already stated.

One type of immunity is also caused by prolonged exposure to an antigen. Like if you keep injecting yourself with small doses of venom in increasing amounts, you will eventually become immune to that specific venom, a lot of people do this. On the other hand, if you stop injecting yourself, you will surely lose your immunity in time. This is an example of antigen dependent immunity.

Very interesting observation Al, blew my mind!
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We are the best GALATASARAY

Really, makes no sense.

That snake probably died from bacteria infection brought by the teeth rather that venom. OR, mambas are not immune to their own venom.

Feeding multiple snakes in a cage or when they have remnants of prey scent in the cage or worse yet on their "person" is a recipe for disaster regardless of species... I know of a Dumeril's boa that killed it's cage mate in such a circumstance. So far as the Mamba goes it is anecdotal evidence at best, since necrosis may have been present and systemically poisoning the patient with bacterial by-products rather than the venomous animal's venom. Whether or not mamba's are immune to mamba venom has not been proved or disproved by this case. One could argue that since mamba's are not thought to be prey items to each other immunity would not be neccesitated. Again anecdotally I had the misfortune some years ago of having a juvinile Western Diamondback rattlesnake bite it's sibling on the head during the night... no food present.... and the bite recipient died the next day. Whether this was due to invenomation or mechanical injury to the snake could/can not be determined.