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For you experienced chuckers. To me, it seems this chuck, which was sold to me as a female, seems to have bulges, but its femoral pores are not as large as I've seen in similarly sized males. Also, it has more black coloration on its head than typical females I've seen, although its head is not as triangular as similarly sized males. What do you think? Male or female?

Thanks,
Perry

Also, I forgot to mention that although banding is present on its tail, when it is fully warmed up, the banding disappears and the tail is a solid white/cream. I thought this is more typical of males but do females sometimes have all white tails too?

Thanks,
Perry

Those sure look like bulges to me. I vote young male.

Beautiful granite!

That's what I thought. This was sold to me by the same person who sent me a beautiful redback male (this "female" was collected from the same area) that died today. See my previous post. In comparison to the other male, this one has much smaller pores, a less triangular head, and is definitely not as colorful. If this is definitely a male, maybe that's why he got confused. I'm very frustrated. He's supposed to find me another male, but now I have to send this one back so I can get a female.

It sounds to me like you had two males, and that chuck looks like a granite, but I have seen some redbacks that almost look like a mix between the two. Males are the more colorful in most chuckwalla locales, I think. Do you have a pic of the one that died?

Yes, I do have pics of the dead male, but I haven't resized them yet so I can post them here. I took them as proof of death. They were collected near Mecca, CA. It's true that males are generally more colorful, but I would imagine that there is a great deal of variation among individuals of certain locales, even of the same sex. If the pic I posted is a male, which you and I both think it is (I'm not experienced with chucks, but believe it or not I've read every post on this forum, being a loooong time lurker. ), I've seen some of equal size with larger femoral pores. I'm wondering though if the size and activity of the pores (secretions, etc.) depends on the hormonal levels and dominance of the individual male. Anyone know?

The femoral pores are weak at the best--the head/body ratio also says female.

David

Yeah, the femoral pores are small, but what about the bulges? Could it be a juvie male? I really haven't kept chucks that long, so I can't be sure, but none of my females, chucks, beardies, etc have pre vent bulges. Maybe its the lighting?

Hey Dave, does it look like a redback to you?

Who's the most experienced chuck breeder here, Nick Dokai, Tom Greb or someone else? Who's most likely to know the answer? Although I noticed that the head is not as triangular and the pores are not that active or large, I wonder if it could still be a male. Do female redbacks of some locales have that amount of black on the head? The bulges is what really makes me wonder. Again, I'm not experienced with chucks so I'm not pretending to know anything.

Perry

I agree with Dave. The pores are small, and the head is not very wide. As far as color goes, there are some females that develop color and patterns that mimic that of the males, although, usually not quite as colorful. Color is not a reliable way to sex chucks. The chuck in question is also prety good size. A juvie male would have shown definite male characteristics already. The close up of the pores is a little fuzzy, but the pores do look small.
I would also say female.

Nick

I too noted the smaller pores and smaller head which made me think female at first, especially compared with similarly sized males. However, in addition to the black areas on the head and white tail, what really threw me off was what appeared to be hemipenal bulges. Most of the reptiles that I've worked with are very sexually dimorphic, like four-horned chameleons, and so I don't usually use bulges to distinguish the sexes. So my question is, what am I looking at with this chuck that appears to hemipenal bulges, fat deposits, maybe muscle?

So Nick, you've seen plenty of redback females with dark black areas on their head? Do you happen to know if such females, which might mimic to a slight degree the appearance of a male, are as successful at breeding like more typical females? Though it might sound like a strange question, the reason I ask is that I've heard of female leopard geckos (I've never worked with them before) that when incubated at certain in between temps can actually mimic male behavior (and mabe look like them to a degree?) and they do not turn out to be good breeders. Might the same hold true here, or has anyone studied this? One last question, how common is a solid white tail in a female redback?

Thanks,
Perry

Perry,
The picture shows slight bulges in the tail, but I would not consider them substantial enough to be hemipenile bulges.
I have seen a good amount of female chucks in general that show a lot of black on the head and limbs, not just in redbacks. In any population, you will see a lot of variation. I know most field guides say that females are usually brown, strongly banded on the body and tail, but this is just not the case for all locales. In most of the locales that I have been to, it seems like some females are kind of non descript, and others look like toned down versions of the males.
I Don't know if anyone has studied the breeding success among females who look more like males. I think as long as they are still acting like females, it shouldn't affect breeding success. The male chucks will know at a glance if the lizard is a female.
As far as the white tail on a female red back, I don't think I have seen it, but I am not familiar with that locale. I have seen a lot of female granites with white tails, though. I think that also just depends on the population. If I remember the ad, the males from there had a lot of white speckling on the back, and a white tail, right? I would expect a "male mimic" female from such a population to get a light colored tail.
I wouldn't worry too much about the quality of breeder your girl will be, I'm sure she will be fine. She is also kind of in the middle, as far as male characteristics go. A friend of ours owns a female yellow tail who is almost all black, with a light tail, very similar to the overall apearance of males from her locale. She is a male mimic, if I've ever seen one.

Nick

OK, so what I thought might be hemipenile bulges is some other tissue. I went to a reptile show today and saw two chucks of some redback locale. The dealer said he got him from a guy that had them for about a year, but he wasn't sure what locale they were. I was very tempted but the male was on the thin side so I passed. The dealer thought they were from somewhere in AZ. The female was much more typically colored of what I normally expect female redbacks to look like. I picked her up to check out her vent area. She too had those bulges and without even asking, when the dealer (a snake guy) saw what I was looking at, he tried to invert the hemipenes. Nothing happened, of course, with the female, but when he tried the same on the male, the hemipenes popped out. I don't know how often this is done with chucks (I know with Meller's chameleons, there is concern of doing damage because their hemipenes are not easy to invert), but the process didn't seem to hurt either of them.

So here is my question. Is what we are seeing as bulges with some female chucks (which I've also seen with other lizards, sometimes causing confusion), muscle tissue, fat deposits or some other tissue? Surely, someone here knows because I don't think those non hemipenile bulges in females are a rare occurance amoung lizards in general.

Finally, here are two males from the same locale from which the unusual colored redback female was collected. The bigger, more red one is the one that died two days after I received him. The smaller one was mistakenly sent to me as a female with the larger male (not by the dealer himself, but by one of his helpers). I immediately knew that I had mistakenly been sent two males. Less than two hours later, he was boxed back up, ready for another plane ride and on his way back to the dealer. I was too anxious to receive a female to go with the male and just assumed the bigger male was not as active and alert as the smaller one due to him being cool right out of the box. I'm kicking myself now for not holding on to the smaller one longer. Although he wasn't as colorful as the larger male, he had a great temperament. The day after I sent the smaller one back, it was obvious that something was wrong with the male I kept because he wasn't using his legs normally. The day after that, he had convulsions and died. Unfortunately, the dealer no longer had the male I sent back, so now, I'll have to wait until July before any possible replacement.

The first two pics show the male that died. The third pic shows the male I should have kept.

Perry

Take a look at my previous post with the pics of the dead male and the smaller male, the "one that got away" LOL (the one I sent back). Of course, I've seen males the size of the smaller one that have a lot more red. Since he was definitely a mature male (his femoral pores were huge) I wondered whether he would get much more red. How long after maturity do redbacks continue to get more red, or does it simply depend on the population or individual?

Unfortunately, like a fish attracted to a shiny lure, I focused on the "shiny" more colorful male. I ignored my gut instinct that something might be wrong with him and instead, I explained his inactivity away by attributing it to him still being cool right out of the box. However, after I pulled out the larger male from the bag, and as I was checking him out, the smaller male, still in the bag, came crawling out alert and active, cocking his head, checking out his surroundings and flicking his tongue. It made me think of a dragon coming out of its lair. I was immediately drawn to the smaller male's activity level and "personality". I hated to send him back, but I was quick to do so, primarily because I had ordered the larger, more colorful one, but also because I simply wanted to hurry up and send him back so I could get the female I had ordered. A lesson learned I guess to be more patient. I should have held on to both males for even a single day because by then, it was obvious there was something wrong with the bigger male. Unfortunately, the smaller male has already been sent out to someone else. Since Nick mentioned that neurological problems can result from using products to get rid of mites, I've asked the guy whether he used any such products, but haven't heard back from him yet.

Perry

Where is everyone? Anyone care to respond to the questions in my previous two messages? I mean come on, I know someone knows the answers.

Perry

Perry,
Like you were already saying, it seems prety common for female lizards to have small bulges where a males hemipinile bulges are. I am not sure what these lumps are made of, but I would assume that they are just muscle, or maybe vestigial pockets that don't really have a purpose in females.
As far as redbacks coloring up, it does depend on the locale and individual. Some are just better looking than others, some color up faster, some slower. I would expect a full color change to take at least 3 to 5 years, sometimes longer. Some continue to develop more black through their whole life. There really is no set standard.

I hope this helped.

Nick

I know I didn't mention red in my last post. But that timeline still applies. To give you an example, we have a male redback who is 3 years old, and his red and black have both developed a lot in the last year. His red still continues to intensify with every shed.

Don't send it back, that is 1000% a female chuck. Not a doubt about it. Chopper Dave wins a cupie doll.

nekkid !!!! And I still chase Copperheads on the mower nekkid.
Are you still keeping critters ? Did you move from the tundra to the desert yet? That lil Saguaro you sent me is doing fine too - it almost rotted a few years ago but I salvaged it. Still no arms have grown on it yet!

Regards from Hot & Dry ( for now) Texas

David

The bulges were the main source of confusion. Still not sure if what superficially looks like hemipenile bulges is fat, muscle or some other tissue. Anyone know?

I agree with Dave and BJ, 100% female from the first glimpse!!! If you feed her so that she gains weight, she will lose the indentation which makes it appear that she has hemipenal bulges. And yes, female redbacks from different locales often have white tails, particularly if they are warm.

I'm convinced and have no doubt now. I guess the subject should have been "The verdict's in (it's a female). LOL. Anyway, that was my initial thought because most everything pointed to it being a female. I was just paranoid I guess, especially since I had already mistakenly been sent 2 males rather than a pair, when I saw what appeared, at first glance at least, to be hemipenile bulges. I still don't know though whether what I am seeing is muscle, fat, or some other tissue. Thanks everyone for your help.

Perry

Bad choice of words. Just because the jury's in doesn't mean a decision has been made. No deliberation was necessary. Clearly she's a she. Besides being a male mimic (imitating slightly a male's coloration), what can we call her? What is the equivalent of a "she-male", surely not a "he-female"?

The head surley looks to be female, not as broad as male.
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PHEve / Eve