Reptile & Amphibian Forums

hi all,

i have recently joined the WD owners club, when i was originally looking to get a pair, the house i was living in was too small and so i didnt think it would be fair on them if it was too cramped up.

i have recently moved house into a much bigger place so i thought its the perfect time to start preparing and then get them.

after 6 months of preparing the viv and getting everything under the sun in preparation for them, moving everything about 50000 times before i was happy nothing would fall, plenty of hiding locations, temps correct, humidity correct etc, i finally picked up Puff and Yoshi from my local pet shop.

the pet shop owner didnt have a great deal of knowledge about WD's, but as he deals with beards and every other form of lizard i was using him more as a general advice line.

they have both been moved in for 2 weeks now, and puff has taken extremly well to the new viv and bounces about everywhere and is bulking out very fast, but Yoshi is significantly more sedate, and i rarely see him eat, hench im a bit worried.

they are both 3 months old ish, both are very happy to be handled, i have a high body temp so they love my heat, and its always a fight to put them back in the viv.

i have also noticed Yoshi has a small mark on his upper lip, which concerns me, i have taken him to the local vet (who im not exactly confident knows much about reptiles)
and he has given me some antibiotics for him, but trying to give them orally is a nightmare, so i have added it to the drinking water, i know puff will also be drinking this, but at least if its anything transferable it should protect her im guessing.

can anyone give me any advice on what this brown mark could be and why yoshi is so sedate ?

here are the pictures of both dragons and the viv.

yoshi's pictures are very badly focus'd
dam camera doesnt pickup enough of him to focus correctly

http://www.thewhitedragon.co.uk/WaterDragons/Yoshi.jpg
http://www.thewhitedragon.co.uk/WaterDragons/Yoshi2.jpg
http://www.thewhitedragon.co.uk/WaterDragons/puff.jpg
http://www.thewhitedragon.co.uk/WaterDragons/Viv1.jpg

well water dragons are extreamly common and caust almost nothing for the pet store to buy, its kind of suprizing a pet store owner wouldnt know anything about water dragons, they are almost as common as bearded because of their price.

the mark on the lip, what did the vet tell you? its from rubbing his nose on the enclosure, simple topical antibiotic is the first rout, injection is way better then oral, less stress.

i inject the antibiotic into crickets. is the antibiotic called baytril? this will often make the wd not want to eat. from stress and from the antibiotic.

i think one is afraid of the other, puff is it? try keepinng puff in a 20 gallon long for a few weeks and see if that makes him feel better. if you have 2 males, this also could be the problem.
did your vet recomend testing for internal parasites?
do you feel confident in your vets treatment? if not , dont go back. look up recomended vets in your local area.
http://www.repticzone.com/forums/index.html has more action and advice
i recomend goingn there because this forum is way to slow

Hi fc3schick87 thanks for the info,

yeah the antibiotic is the one you said, my brother is a vetinary nurse but his practise doesnt have anyone who specialises in reptiles, so hench i went to another one which has only recently been opened.
when i made the appointment they gave me the impression that they did over the phone. but when i got there i started to doubt it, when i questioned the vet she said all lizards have the same physiology so the treatment wouldnt be too different.

i read up about both internal and external parasites which was something else i wondered about but she didnt say anything about it, which i why im doubting her knowledge of reptiles.

giving the anti biotics orally isnt too bad, yoshi doesnt particularly like it, but by slowly adding dropplets to his mouth he does lick the end of the syringe, i think yoshi knows im trying to help so doesnt resist too much.

both puff and yoshi are too young to be sex'd properly so i've been tring to read up about other possible indications which suggest puff maybe male, and yoshi female.

things like general behaviour, both in and out of the viv,
the way the stand, the way they bathe, the way they sleep etc, there are supposed to be slight tells which females and males do differently, but it may just be me wanting to see these things after reading about them.

on the alternative vet front i have made an appointment with another vet in a different town who IS a specialist.
my brother looked him up, and checked all his credentials for me.

its a 45min drive and im a bit unsure about the length of time out of the proper atmosphere, other than slapping the cars heating up to full i dont want to make yoshi uncomfortable.

i have already covered the sides of there travel box as it was completely clear (yes a stupid purchase as i already knew about wd's and invisible barriers) but i couldnt find an opaque one, hench "customising" if myself

the petshop owner has only really started to sell water dragons recently, (may have been since i asked him if he knew of any breeders)

i do like the idea of injecting the crickets with the antibiotics, though im struggling with the logic of it - how much do you inject, and where ? surely more than a tiny amount would kill the cricket instantly ?

im debating changing there food to xx worms to add a little variation, maybe they would suit injection better ?
undecided on the best type of worm yet, hench the xx, many people recommend diffrent types, can you recommend any which yours prefer ?

thanks again for any info, its all greatly appricated.

super worms or xx worms you speek of are OK as a diet but have a very high fat content and hard shell, feeding only this will give you a fat reptile over a few months. injecting antibiotic into them doesnt kill them instantly maybe 5 min. you have to be carefull on the amount or else it'll creat to much pressure and pop. yuck.on a super worm there isnt room to expand. on a cricket there is more so, less of a hard shell.

dont feed king worms, they are meal worms that have ingested a hormone to keep them in a worm form and grow. meal worms always turn into beetles if kept out of the fridge. super worms will not do this unless still,quite, and dark. so if you leave them in a , letts say litter pan with flukers meal worm diet, they will last for as long as you have provided them with a slice of apple or potato or carrot for moisture.

roaches are also a good food sorce, you can buy alot of them. leave them in a tank with an under tank heater. spray them weekly. and give them cricket food and water sorce, they give live birth so no worry of egg incubation
check nwworms.com for list of those buggers

when fall arives you should try silk worms. they require you to wash your hands since they dont have an imune system but once you get the hang of it, reptiles will eat them like candy. down side to feeding high quantities of silks, you gete runny poo cuz they are so high in moisture. but they are also abotu 67% protien!!!

crickets, roaches, silk worms, super worms, all great items

that sounds like a great switch, i wouldnt keep them only on mealworms its just something to give them a variety of choice, so they dont get bored of the same food too quickl.

thanks for the info on silks though ill see if i can get hold of some, as ou say the perfect treat really

i have started to make sure yoshi gets fed 1st when i put food in just to make sure that i do actually see her eat at least once a day, thats another thing i was meaning to ask about - i've read hundreds of diffrent posts suggesting different feeding methods and schedules - can i ask how oftern and how much you would suggest ?

they are only about 3-4 months old.

2-3 times a day, small meals work best. offer as much as they will eat. i would guess 5 crickets at least. or 3 super worms or more! (dont ever feed meal worms they are useless)
mulberryfarm.com has good prices on silk worms. you can see they are pricey, and right now it is to hot to ship them. often they arrive in a massive gooie mess if its to hot. they die with humidity and heat. and they are shipped with food so.. yuck!

you can try your luck with mulberry, expecialy since they garentee live delivery.

i keep mine in a clean plastic shallow long bin lined with small animal cage liner or paper towel. i orderd large petri dishes from mullberry and i put the mullberry food into the dishes. each worm must have its spot on the food or dehydration will set in and kill your worm because it wont eat well.
they are easy to bruse, that will kill it.
they are easy to get sick with bacteria. wash your hands
they die with moisture, dont close container with worms. large open area works best and few stray if food is avalable.

i use chopsticks to pull out silk worms that i wish to feed, that way i dont have to wash my hands 20 times. never return an uneaten silk worm back into the bin.

silk worms can be a staple food, but i noticed runny poo like i said before. silk worms contain enzimes, one of which helps with the absorbing of calcium!!

The little mark could be the beginnings of mouth rot. Generally the area needs to be cleaned out and flushed and the exudate sent for a culture and sensitivity test so that the appropriate antibiotic can be given.

If not treated properly it can spread. If your dragon's mouth is sore enough it might be keeping it from eating and make it lethargic.

The two should really be separated until this is cleared up.
Its okay to keep them together again after that until they are at least a year old. If you have a male and female, then leaving them together, when they reach sexual maturity they will undoubtedly mate even if they are not full grown. IMHO that puts a strain on the female's system to produce eggs when she is still needing the nutrients to grow her own body.

mouth rot isnt contagious is it? idk if a biopsy of mouth tissue would be nessasary... it sure as heck will be expencive to have that done. simple baytril and daily/as needed cleaning will take care of any mild case. i had a water dragon with exposed bone with no infection or mouth rot, just simply exposed bone on his jaw. started with rubbing his nose and eventualy pulled his skin down to where you could see a good 1/16 of an inch of his bone and he lost teeth. i kept him on baytrill for 2 months every other day, low dose, and kept the area clean with antifungle.
http://www.healthypets.com/zylmedskinth.html this stuff is amazing i highly recomend it, it can be ingested.

your dragon may use this, but dont take this as a substitute for seeing the vet, you need internal antibiotics to cure any internal infection. baytril is a nice mild wide spectrum antibiotic that can be injected or given orally.

You asked..."mouth rot isnt contagious is it?"...not through the air but it could be if the bacteria is introduced to the other one through contact (like a bite, for instance).

You said..."idk if a biopsy of mouth tissue would be nessasary... it sure as heck will be expencive to have that done. simple baytril and daily/as needed cleaning will take care of any mild case"...I didn't say "biopsy"...I said culture and sensitivity test. Without the test you won't know if the baytril is capable of killing the bacteria involved. If there is a pocket of infection there, then it will need to be cleaned out or it will only recur in my experience.

soory its been a while since i responded - im doing a lot of stuff with the house at present, the dragons are both doing well, the brown area on yoshi's mouth has cleared up, i simply used baytril and water cleaning yoshi's mouth, he didnt generally like having it orally but after reading bert's book on water dragons it says simply put a small droplet between the mouth and nose and the dragon will lick the solution, it made it soo much easier to give the antibiotics.

Yoshi is eating well, though i think puff was becoming jelous as i tend to handle yoshi more at present due to the mouth problem, so i have started to give puff a placebo - simply water in the syringe and doing the same, which seems to have calmed puff down a bit.

thanks for the advice guys/gals it has significantly reduced my stress levels, as i was worrying about them every day and while i was at work, thanks again

p.s. if you dont have bert langerwerfs book on water dragons i recommend getting it, it mainly covers austrialians but it covers chinese as well.