Reptile & Amphibian Forums

For a feeder-rat breeding set-up what is an appropriate, humane, cage space allotment per rat? My small rat colony, now, must fit completely inside of the master bathroom, and not extend into any other part of the house.

At the time of my rat housing troubles 16 months ago, my largest cage which, not counting the small mortar tub base, is eight (8) cubic feet (17 in wide X 24 in long X 34 in tall); housed six (6) related male rats (who always had looked happy - not stressed - to me). According to the Humane Society that was much too crowded, at a mere 1.3 cubic feet per rat. The Humane Society Lady took away two rats from that cage with her. That left four (4) rats at two (2) cubic feet each, which was pushing the limit. I was also scolded for not having shelves or a wheel for the rats in that cage. I later added two (2) shelves to increase the square footage of space availiable to the rats, and a larger water bottle.

I have since built a hardware-cloth topper for a cat-litter pan, giving that cage about three (3) cubic feet of space, total. By the two (2) cubic foot rule, that cage should only hold a maximum of 1½ rats; or, since you can't have half a rat, one (1) rat. It currently houses two (2) rats a male, Remi, and a female, Ms. Goodie Hoodie; giving each one-and-a-half (1½) cubic feet. This cage is not tall enough for added shelves, but I do have hammocks hanging from the ceiling for them, which they enjoy. I am hoping for babies, but I fear that all ten (10) of my rats may be too old for breeding.

I need to build some new cages, because all of my remaining cages are too small. So, what cage sizes would be appropriate for the very small rat colony needed to feed two (2) snakes? And how many rats should supply my snakes' need, since I am probably going to have to start my colony over with some new breeder rats.

Buying feeder rodents, on a regular basis, from a petstore is not a viable option for me; since the nearest petstore is over one-hundred-thirty (130) miles away, each direction.

Snakey Lakey

Hi,

You should post this topic in Cage & Habitat Design.

Regards,
Mark
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STRENGTH IN NUMBERS

No one answered when I posted this question in the Cage Design and Habitats forum.

Anyway, this was supposed to be a continuation of the discussion started below under adamjeffery's question about breeding rats in aquariums. I believe that my subject should have its own thread, instead of hijacking Adam's thread.

I do have real concerns about cage space requirements for breeding feeder rats. My Gopher snake needs the more regular feeding schedule, that only breeding my own feeders can provide. (That does not preclude my few breeders from becoming semi-pets, with only their babies becoming snake food.)

I need to reorganize my entire rat colony, with better enclosures (and new rats, since the ones that I have now are NOT producing). How do I reconcile information on rack systems with what I hear from the Humane Society and read about cages on rat care websites? I want to be legal. I do not want to break any animal welfare laws (crazy as some of them may be, like the rule of only ten animals aggregate per household).

Snakey Lakey

Hi,

Seriously no one cares about how much room our feeder rats need to live a happy life. I don't mean to be offensive but that is just the reality. I just fed off 20 rats tonight and not one of them was over the age of 5 weeks. My breeders are very happy. They eat well and get all the water they can stand. We are talking about rats.

Mark
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STRENGTH IN NUMBERS

in my state rats have more rights than humans, or snakes, do.

Last year, I almost went to jail because my rats were over crowded (and I had too many), according to the Humane Society.

I can not even have any frozen rodents in my freezer, since that is positive proof of the FELONY crime of animal hoarding. That the frozen rodents are snake food is completely irrelevent, not that I can get my finicky snake to eat F/T.

Snakey Lakey

Hi,

Please tell me what state and city you live in? I have to see these laws for my self about maintaining rats. I can't understand how anyone can set any caging guideline other that are your animals healthy? Weird.

Mark
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STRENGTH IN NUMBERS

I would search the last few pages as this topic comes up.

However I think you will find most breeders keep animal in cages that apparently don't meet your humane society expectations. I myself keep a trio in 7 gal mortar tubs, no shelves, no wheel, just food and water. I find it odd that they have regulations as many a person has posted that they can't find regulations via the humane society.

Even worse rat wheels are hard to find and very spendy, even worse they are huge 12" in diameter.

Are you in Utah?

This question was avoided on the cage and design forum because its better suited for this forum. Also its a topic usually avoided...
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Jeremy Payne
JB Reptile

1.0 Snow "Kahl"
0.2 Triple Het Moonglow "Kahl"
0.1 Orange Tail Hypo Het Leopard
0.1 Double Het "Sharp" Snow
1.0 Ghost
0.1 Possible Super Hypo
0.1 DH Ghost
1.1 "Kahl" Albino
1.0 Hypomelenistic
1.3 Pastel Hypo
0.1 Anerthrystic

1.1 Morelia Clastolepis

Hi,

Do you live in Mayberry and you upset Andy? I am guessing you live in Seattle or Portland?

Mark
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STRENGTH IN NUMBERS

Mark, you were fairly close, relatively speaking, when you guessed Portland (less than 400 miles away). Except I am across the state, on the other side of the Cascade mountain range, in a very small ranching community in the Oregon High Desert, with lots of sagebrush outside of town.

Most people around here believe that, "The only good snake is a dead snake", because they are, unreasonably, paranoid about Rattlesnakes. They, also, mistakenly, believe that, "All snakes are Rattlesnakes". While I, on the other hand, respect Rattlesnakes. I do not, and will not, own one; but do I believe that Rattlesnakes should be allowed to live with the freedom necessary to reduce the vermin population.

I live within the natural ranges of both Great Basin Gopher snakes Pituophis catenifer deserticola, and Wandering Garter snakes Thamnophis elegans vagrans. I was shopping at a yard sale, located about 1 mile (as the crow flies) or 2 miles (as the car drives) away from my house, on 18 May 2002; when the women running the sale freaked-out because a snake had slithered across their feet; so I rescued the GB Gopher snake, before they could kill it. My Wandering Garter snake was captured in the late summer, or early autumn, of 2000 at the small (money loser) ranch that my parents used to have about 10 miles out of town.

My user name, of Snakey Lakey, comes from the name that I gave to my first snake (when I was in the first or second grade), though I am now middle-aged.

Snakey Lakey

I asked because an individual from Utah had a suprisiongly similar situation...
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Jeremy Payne
JB Reptile

1.0 Snow "Kahl"
0.2 Triple Het Moonglow "Kahl"
0.1 Orange Tail Hypo Het Leopard
0.1 Double Het "Sharp" Snow
1.0 Ghost
0.1 Possible Super Hypo
0.1 DH Ghost
1.1 "Kahl" Albino
1.0 Hypomelenistic
1.3 Pastel Hypo
0.1 Anerthrystic

1.1 Morelia Clastolepis

I have family in Redmond and in Madras. We were breeding snakes and our own rodents when a "concerned citizen" reported that we had "hundreds" of animals in dirty cages. Two freedom breeder racks of rats and about 30 snakes. After A LOT of trouble and court visits I found out that the pet shop I went to reported me. They were against us breeding snakes. I stood my ground, sued for slander, and I now have four racks and more snakes. People seem to think if they don't like you doing something it must be illegal. I think these people moving to the high desert need to go back home.

The petstore I mentioned in the first post in this thread, is the Petco in Bend.

It seems the bulk of your rats are pet rats, and its much better to house pet rats in large cages. However I despise the all wire cages that often are the only available commercial rat cage. Sure the rats can climb all over the cage, have plenty of room etc..but its messy, hard to clean and you end up having urine sprayed all over the areas surrounding the cage. Its icky.

I keep a small breeding colony of rats to feed my collection of snakes. I keep a trio (two female, one male) in a large 'roughneck' rubbermaid container that is 42"x21"x17" roughly. I don't use rat wheels as most rats don't use them...and you need to buy at least a 12" diameter or more sized wheel. I did have one about that size in with weaned rats and they completely ignored it...in fact they more often than not just buried the wheel in bedding.

I use aspen for bedding, lined with newspaper underneath, or parcel paper. The rats spend a fair bit of time tearing up the paper which they seem to enjoy. I use large PVC (4" diameter) pipe sections (T junctions, elbows short straight sections) as these provide plenty of hides and tunnels for the rats to run and play in, also they nest in the T-junctions or Y junctions sections nicely. Another benefit is the pipes are easy to clean and the rats don't chew them. I toss in small cardboard boxes, toilet paper, paper towel tubes and other items to give the rats something to chew on and amuse them.

The rats you currently have, if they are over 18 months, they are pretty much too old to breed. The males could breed true but better to start off with a young duo or trio. It can take about 1-3 months for the trio to start producing young, as it takes them a bit of time to settle, unlike mice who seem willing to breed within a few weeks of going into a new home. (assuming they are fully weaned when purchased..some petstores get barely weaned mice or rats, which often fail to thrive as they are still needing mother's milk...or are just very slow to catch up to babies who stayed another week with their mother).
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PHLdyPayne

I WAS trying to breed FEEDER RATS for my Gopher snake; until I ran afoul of the Humane Society.

Apparently, the possession of over ten (10) animals, aggregate total, per household (or having any dead animals in the freezer - even if they are for snake food), is considered evidence of the FELONY crime of Animal Hoarding.

Ridiculous I know, but that is the way it is in my state. At least a half-dozen Animal Hoarders have been prosecuted (and found guilty) in my COUNTY alone in recent years. The only way to keep more than the maximum ten (10) animals is to obtain a very expensive animal shelter permit, which is rarely granted.

Snakey Lakey

If that's the case, I wonder if they should start going after people who breed tropical fish. I female guppy and 3 weeks later... you're a criminal. Sheesh that's nuts.

but that is the way the law is.