Reptile & Amphibian Forums

Hey,
Kinda worried about my 2 Veileds right now. I went in to feed/water them tonight and neither of them can shoot their tongues out.
I've had them about 3 weeks now and they're about 2" SVL, 1 male and 1 female. They've been eating like champs on loaded crickets and the occasional grasshopper nymph or fly. I spray them with a water bottle 2 times a day and they get a shower 2 days a week. I keep them on a 3.5'X2' hanging Hoya Bella plant in a sunny window. They rarely run into each other as its quite a large plant and its only been rainy here 2 times since I got them, so they get sun every day.
I went in today to water them and they both drank as they usually do, but when I went to feed them, they couldn't shoot their tongues out...they tried several times, but it seemed to cause them pain when they tried. The females came out about half way so she just walked close enough to the cricket so her tongue would work, but then when she tried again later, it seemed to be painful and she started gaping her mouth and writhing around and almost fell off the plant. The male tried to shoot his tongue to eat, but couldn't even get it out without writhing around and gaping his mouth.
I also noticed that they seem to have a problem with their legs...when they go to climb, their legs get all shaky and their feet close, almost like they have minds of their own as they kinda shoot off in weird directions whenever they let go of the plant. They were fine this morning when I went in to open their curtains, but by tonight, all this has happened?
I looked up Gular Edema, but it said nothing about the leg/nerve problem. I also have only fed them dusted crickets one or two times since I've had them. Its just all happened so quick, and to both of them that I don't know whats going on? I put them in their cage under their heat lamp and they seem quite content, bright green, eyes darting all around. I'm just lost, what do you think has happened?

my first thought was dehydration because of the short time you have had them, but then when the leg thing came up i thought its probably the onset of mbd, which imo is most often caused by either lighting issues and/or over supplementation causing a lack of calcium absorbsion. in either case,if you want to save your chameleons, i would seek a qualified herp vet asap for a complete calcium evaluation (usually require blood work). in the meantime you might want to review both your lighting arraingement and your supplementation routine. i dont know what your "heat lamp" is, but if it is infra red i would get rid of it, and you didnt mention your uvb , but if it is a cfl (screw in compact fluorescent) i would get rid of that as well. chameleons require fairly specific care and failure to learn that care usually leads to the demise of the animal. if it is the onset of mbd it is fairly unlikely that the issues can be reversed without the help of an experinced herp vet and the sooner it is caught the better , in the meantime, just to get you started, here are some links you might find useful http://raisingkittytheveiledchameleon.blogspot.com/ http://www.reptileuv.com/ http://www.adcham.com/ http://www.chameleonnews.com/?page=article&id=70 Chameleons: Signs, Treatment, and Prevention of Vitamin A Deficiencies http://blogs.thatpetplace.com/thatreptileblog/2009/05/06/research-note-chameleon-basking-behavior-is-affected-by-vitamin-d-needs/ http://chamworld.blogspot.com/2008/03/chat-with-dr-gary-w-ferguson.html

I agree...first thing to look at is your source of UVB. Getting light through a window won't provide it as most window glass blocks UV. You can hang a fluorescent tube fixture with a ReptiSun 5.0 over your Hoya...but I'm sure you realize that they won't be able to live on that plant as they grow. Veileds are too territorial to share living space. They will need to be separated visually. Eventually one will become dominant and the subordinate cham will break down with health problems first.

A vet can tell you if its a calcium issue and give the chameleons injections of calcium. When the blood calcium levels are high enough, they can be given a shot of calcitonin to quickly draw the calcium back into the bones.

Its important to get this solved as quickly as possible so that there will be no further damage to your chameleons and they can recover from it.

In addition to correcting the calcium levels, you need to address the husbandry issues so that it won't happen again.

A good source of UVB such as the Repti-sun 5.0 long linear tube or direct sunlight (neither of which should pass through glass or plastic) will allow the chameleon to produce D3 which will allow it to use the calcium in its system.

Dusting at most feedings with a phos.-free calcium powder will help to make up for the usually poor ratio of calcium to phos. found in most of the feeder insects used.

I dust twice a month with a phos.-free calcium/D3 powder. D3 from supplements can build up in the system though, so don't overdo it.

I dust twice a month with a vitamin powder that has a beta carotene source of vitamin a. Beta carotene (prOformed vitamin A) won't build up in the system. However, its not been proven if all/any chameleons can convert it so some people give a little prEformed vitamin A once in a while. PrEformed vitamin A can build up in the system and excess can interfere with the D3 and push the chameleon towards MBD..so don't overdo it.

Gutloading/feeding the insects a nutritious diet is also important. Crickets, roaches, superworms can be fed a wide assortment of greens (dandelions, collards, kale, endive, escarole, mustard greens, etc.) and veggies (carrots, squash, sweet potato, sweet red peppers, etc.).

Good luck getting your chameleons back on track!

Sorry, I guess I was in a little bit of a hurry when I typed that. I know the current housing isn't perfect, but they're still small, and opposite sexes, so I figured for the time being it wouldn't be detrimental with them having so much room. They have 2 UVB lamps, one for the top of the plant, one for the bottom and a ceramic heater just to provide that much more heat and lighting when its cloudy.
They get unfiltered sun for about 3-4 hours a day, their window is a 5'X4' picture window, no screen, its open most days and they have no access out the window. I feed them about 10-15 small feeders a day, or however much they can eat. They're not my first chameleons and def. not my first reptiles.
I don't over dust the feeders as I've read that that can cause just as many problems as not dusting.
I just don't understand why it was so sudden. They dont have any deformities, or even the beginning signs. It was literally over a couple hours that they started acting like this. I kept them extra warm last night and showered them today on schedule, they seem to be walking fine and they don't seem to be in pain when they try to eat, but they still cant extend their tongues...they did deficate today and the feces seemed to be abnormally large, is it possible that they could both be impacted and that's causing the problem?

I don't see how impaction would cause this. If they are not passing ANYTHING that is an actual impaction.

Tongue problems are most often linked to nutritional imbalances (calcium/D3/UVB issues), dehydration, or physical injury. The fact that they both have the same problem rules out injury probably. Possibly the problem has been creeping up gradually and maybe it wasn't obvious until the last couple of days. If they can't extend or control their tongues that speaks to nutrition, but if they can shoot but not capture anything (tongue isn't "sticky" that speaks to dehydration. What brand of UV light bulb are you using? The best and safest one out there is the ReptiSun 5.0. Most others are just not adequate. The coil compact fluorescent types are bad for cham eyes.

You said..."I don't over dust the feeders as I've read that that can cause just as many problems as not dusting"...true..but its important to dust enough too.

You said..."I just don't understand why it was so sudden. They dont have any deformities, or even the beginning signs. It was literally over a couple hours that they started acting like this"...calcium imbalances can come to light suddenly. It is strange that they have no deformities, etc.

Can you post a picture please?

You said..."the feces seemed to be abnormally large, is it possible that they could both be impacted and that's causing the problem?"...lack of calcium can slow the intestines down and it can constipate them too. (Calcium plays a part in muscle contractions.)

that is exactly why new keepers (and some experienced ones) have a hard time with chameleons, by the time something becomes obvious, it is already a significant problem, and not just easily reversed. there are more subtle signs, but they are so subtle that most newer keepers dont have enough experience with them to notice them, the only way to deal with it, is to know the issues and stay on top of them. there is this mindset with most newer keepers that he looks ok so he must be doing fine, when in reality, by the time a chameleon doesnt look ok, the problem has reached significant proportions and may be difficult if not impossible to reverse. the only answer to that is to know chameleon care issues well enough, so that doesnt happen. it often takes the loss of a chameleon for a new keeper to learn that, sometimes it takes the loss of a chameleon for an experienced keeper to remember it, of course there are exceptions, some chameleons come with hidden or inherent health problems (like parasites or organ damage) that may have them doomed regardless of the care they recieve. (not saying thats the issue in your case)the best way to save or help any chameleon is to further educate yourself on care issue because more often than not, there is no single issue or quick fix involved. keeping chameleons is different from keeping other animals

Is it possible to post a video as well as pucs on here? I'd like to get a video of them trying to eat, that's when they seem to have the most issues.

if you have website hosting for your pics/video (like yuotube or photobucket you can just post the image url below the post responce box

I agree with the others...mbd caused by the lack of calcium dusting..they are growing at a tremendous rate[like b.dragons] and def.need the powder on their crix.I used to attach a fresh veggie leaf in my cage[mustard or turnip greens] and mine would munch[extra calcium nutrients]on that as well.Hope all goes well.